Help me with the Liberty and Abortion debate

[Confederate]

I'm a Libertarian (actually Classical Liberal) and I'm pro-choice. It's a state issue, pure and simple. I believe the government has no business funding it, and a lot of babies would be spared if the government didn't subsidize abortions.

It's not a state issue, though. The federal Constitution recognizes a right to life, meaning no state can legalize any form of murder.

[otherone]

It's not a state issue, though. The federal Constitution recognizes a right to life, meaning no state can legalize any form of murder.

yes. define murder. define person; from a legal context. not that I want to go down this rabbit hole again.

[Feeding the Abscess]

The libertarian position is one absent from government.

So really, the easiest objection to "oh you want government to impose your values on everyone" is, "nope."

[Confederate]

The libertarian position is one absent from government.

So really, the easiest objection to "oh you want government to impose your values on everyone" is, "nope."

So should there be no murder laws at all?

[James Madison]

After that, the conversation nearly always devolves to a life begins at _____________, which means the unborn do/don't have any rights. Then it just sounds like a conservative vs. liberal debate. I know my response is weak and needs improvement, or at least something new to add. Can somebody help me out with this?

Firstly, we need to establish that no 'vital life force' or 'life essence' exists, as was thought to be the case until the late 19th Century. Secondly, we must understand that life 'begins' the moment a cell becomes homeostatic. The rest is simple application of this principle: a single zygote is biologically alive in the same way our neurons, lymphocytes, and histiocytes are alive. In short, the zygote is a living organism under the strictest definition possible.

[Feeding the Abscess]

So should there be no murder laws at all?

False choice time!

Furthermore, it's not murder to expel someone from your property and decline to feed or house them. Otherwise, not feeding or caring for homeless people, or the elderly, or the infirmed, is murder.

Firstly, we need to establish that no 'vital life force' or 'life essence' exists, as was thought to be the case until the late 19th Century. Secondly, we must understand that life 'begins' the moment a cell becomes homeostatic. The rest is simple application of this principle: a single zygote is biologically alive in the same way our neurons, lymphocytes, and histiocytes are alive. In short, the zygote is a living organism under the strictest definition possible.

I completely agree, which is why creating rules for the forcing of people to feed and shelter the special class of unborn babies is irreconcilable with libertarianism.

[Occam's Banana]

IMHO, there is no "libertarian" position on abortion. And it usually boils down to the question you identified, which also does not have a "libertarian" position.

THIS. When it comes to abortion, there are "pro-life" libertarians, and there are "pro-choice" libertarians.

The thing that really irritates the hell out of me when it comes to attitudes like those expressed by "Person" in the OP is the hypocricy of it all.

Let's see ... I perceive that libertarianism is "pro-life" ... so I'm going to stick with supporting a corrupt system that destroys freedom, robs people, murders people at home, murders even more people in foreign countries, etc., etc., etc.

And I'm going to do it because I am "pro-choice" and don't like the fact that SOME libertarians are "pro-life" ... How goddam lame is that?

OP should point out to "Person" that EXACTLY the same thing can be said about Republicans and Democrats - and any other group that is not solely dedicated to the issue of abortion one way or the other.

The fact that "Person" invokes such a lame excuse indicates the posibility that "pro-life" is NOT really a genuine "stumbling block" for "Person".

It could very possibly be just an excuse to avoid addressing or acknowledging the validity of libertarianism's critique of and opposition to statist/collectivist ideologies.

ETA:

Usually when I bring up states rights and sovereignty they give me a funny look because they are used to (and want) a "one size fits all" federal solution. It usually goes nowhere with the debate. Like the whole "We all learned about what happens when states totally disagree. Remember? It's called the civil war." Jesus people. Thanks for that. In all seriousness, states rights and quoting the Constitution usually kills the conversation. They are talking idealistically, they want to know why Libertarians, in principle, endorse taking away people's "liberty" to have an abortion.

Yep. That just confirms my suspicion that "pro-choice" objections to libertarianism are just a cover excuse for avoiding the real issues of power, control and freedom.

[Traditional Conservative]

So should there be no murder laws at all?

He's an anarchist, so he doesn't think there should be any murder laws. I'm not sure why he didn't admit that.

[emazur]

About 2/3 of libertarians are pro-choice so I'm not seeing where this comes from: do not like that fact that they are "so pro-life." I'm pro-choice but respect the pro-life position so I will help you out here.

When the conversation reaches the point about whether or not life begins at conception and your opponent says it does not, ask this. "So if a drunk driver crashes into your car and you or your spouse (or friend or sister or whatever) has a miscarriage b/c of the incident, you would not want any additional punishment for the drunkard b/c life begins at conception and therefore no life was taken?".

[Confederate]

About 2/3 of libertarians are pro-choice so I'm not seeing where this comes from: do not like that fact that they are "so pro-life." I'm pro-choice but respect the pro-life position so I will help you out here.

When the conversation reaches the point about whether or not life begins at conception and your opponent says it does not, ask this. "So if a drunk driver crashes into your car and you or your spouse (or friend or sister or whatever) has a miscarriage b/c of the incident, you would not want any additional punishment for the drunkard b/c life begins at conception and therefore no life was taken?".

Are you saying you accept that life begins at conception but have no problem with that life being murdered?