Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 98

Thread: Infused Righteousness vs Imputed Righteousness: Which One Entitles Us To Enter Heaven?

  1. #61
    I think the one about sowing discord among brothes might be applicable. Just think about it. I think it is a good idea not to judge the heart of another.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Great verses. What do any of them have to do with my post?
    Ah, well, turn to the Spirit and ask for guidance and wisdom and it shall be answered. Those who have ears...
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Ah, well, turn to the Spirit and ask for guidance and wisdom and it shall be answered. Those who have ears...
    Well, you posted them. Why did you post those particular ones?

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

    What percentage of the New Testament is from Paul (the Roman [statist]) again?

    Actually, I really don't give a crap about Paul's opinion on anything.

    "One might say that it became...The exact opposite of what was intended." - Manfred Mezger, Protestant Theologian
    Thank you.

    Interesting how Christ's words are seldom quoted on this religious forum. When is doubt I always go to His words- and no other.
    There is no spoon.



  6. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Well, you posted them. Why did you post those particular ones?
    It is not for me as a member of the damned and ignorant to educate you. This is the Scriptures you proclaim to be perfect in knowledge on.

    Iirc, isn't this the peace through religion forum? How exactly is your mission to create such division in keeping with the objectives of this sub forum again?
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Thank you.

    Interesting how Christ's words are seldom quoted on this religious forum. When is doubt I always go to His words- and no other.
    You're welcome. Yeah, when it gets really confusing and all else fails, just go to the boss (authority).

    I certainly wouldn't ever try to verify anything Jesus, with a Roman.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    It is not for me as a member of the damned and ignorant to educate you. This is the Scriptures you proclaim to be perfect in knowledge on.

    Iirc, isn't this the peace through religion forum? How exactly is your mission to create such division in keeping with the objectives of this sub forum again?
    Division does not mean incivility. We have had very civil discussions here lately. And I for one appreciate what you have been adding to these discussions.

  10. #68
    A degree a peace may be restored/obtained by just cleaning out some of the overgrown and tangled underbrush.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    A degree a peace may be restored/obtained by just cleaning out some of the overgrown and tangled underbrush.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Division does not mean incivility. We have had very civil discussions here lately. And I for one appreciate what you have been adding to these discussions.
    I disagree with the so called civility you seem to be proclaiming. People who manipulate without apology through use of the rep system even after explanation of the discomfort they are causing, are rude and lack basic courtesy. Proclaiming knowledge as to the status of a relationship one is not a party is not only presumptuous but rude and discourteous.



    Jude 1:16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

    A Call to Persevere
    17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.

    Proverbs 6:16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
    seven that are an abomination to him:
    17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
    and hands that shed innocent blood,
    18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
    feet that make haste to run to evil,
    19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
    and one who sows discord among brothers.

    Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
    ~~~
    to the controversial nature of religious topics, users must avoid getting into disrespectful fights that only divide our members for unneeded reasons...



    Question 6: Can I identify falsehoods in others religion?

    Answer: You are welcome to identify what you see as falsehoods, just please do so in a respectful manner which means you will have to lay out intellectually based arguments, not ones on unsupported name callings. You saying things are false doesn't make it so, others can just as easily say what you believe is false, name calling can escalate, and then, where does that leave us? How has anyone enriched their life?

    Things can only be false if a complete ironclad proof is presented that clearly shows it is so. If you have done that, present you case each time you make a claim. I would suggest to start a new thread to demonstrate your proof, let it be peer reviewed and critique and then reference to it in others threads. This will prevent having to repeat your proof over and over.

    ------

    Question 8: Is there a protected class of people on the site?

    Answer: No, the key point is to "Be respectful of others' religion or lack thereof." You can criticize, just be respectful in doing so. There is no way to claim to be respectful when you are declaring a proof that can not be proven. This would apply equally both ways in that is it not respectful to tell someone "You're going to hell" because of a lack of religion, because it can't be proven.

    -----


    Question 9: Can I make judgments against people?

    Answer: No. You can make arguments against ideas, positions and beliefs. There is no functional value in judgements against people. Further, people can change, the characteristics of an idea can not.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...r-lack-thereof
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  13. #71
    Question 6: Can I identify falsehoods in others religion?

    Answer: You are welcome to identify what you see as falsehoods, just please do so in a respectful manner which means you will have to lay out intellectually based arguments, not ones on unsupported name callings. You saying things are false doesn't make it so, others can just as easily say what you believe is false, name calling can escalate, and then, where does that leave us? How has anyone enriched their life?

    Things can only be false if a complete ironclad proof is presented that clearly shows it is so. If you have done that, present you case each time you make a claim. I would suggest to start a new thread to demonstrate your proof, let it be peer reviewed and critique and then reference to it in others threads. This will prevent having to repeat your proof over and over.

    ------

    Question 8: Is there a protected class of people on the site?

    Answer: No, the key point is to "Be respectful of others' religion or lack thereof." You can criticize, just be respectful in doing so. There is no way to claim to be respectful when you are declaring a proof that can not be proven. This would apply equally both ways in that is it not respectful to tell someone "You're going to hell" because of a lack of religion, because it can't be proven.

    -----


    Question 9: Can I make judgments against people?

    Answer: No. You can make arguments against ideas, positions and beliefs. There is no functional value in judgements against people. Further, people can change, the characteristics of an idea can not.
    I just wanted to repost these so that everyone in the forum can see what the guidelines are.

    Let's be civil and have good discussions in the Religion forum.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Yes! There will be growth in the spring!



  15. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  16. #73

    It's a Invalid Question

    The original post is based on a false dichotomy because it is both which entitles us to enter Heaven. They both work simultaneously within a Trinitarian framework of salvation. "Infused righteousness" and "imputed righteousness" both point to Christ because it is His righteousness by which the Father finds us pleasing in His sight.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    The original post is based on a false dichotomy because it is both which entitles us to enter Heaven. They both work simultaneously within a Trinitarian framework of salvation. "Infused righteousness" and "imputed righteousness" both point to Christ because it is His righteousness by which the Father finds us pleasing in His sight.
    I disagree with that and all of the Reformed confessions disagree with that too in their sections on justification. Refer to the WCF chapter 11:

    I. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

  18. #75
    Here is one of the foremost Christian theologians of recent times explaining the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone:


  19. #76

    I Understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    I disagree with that and all of the Reformed confessions disagree with that too in their sections on justification. Refer to the WCF chapter 11:
    I'm not talking about justification, Sola. I said salvation.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    I'm not talking about justification, Sola. I said salvation.
    Sanctification does not entitle us to heaven. We are justified (made right before God) by justification alone.

  21. #78

    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Sanctification does not entitle us to heaven. We are justified (made right before God) by justification alone.
    Where did I say that sanctification entitles us to Heaven, Sola?
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Where did I say that sanctification entitles us to Heaven, Sola?
    Well, you said infused righteousness entitles us to heaven. I took it to mean sanctification, or something like it. Is that what you meant?

  23. #80

    What I Meant

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Well, you said infused righteousness entitles us to heaven. I took it to mean sanctification, or something like it. Is that what you meant?
    No, that's not what I meant. I was just saying that there is an external and internal change in us that are factors of our being entitled to Heaven. That which is wrought in us (because of the Holy Spirit giving us new hearts) and that which is declared of us (because of what Christ has done, despite us) are the means by which the Father reconciles us to Himself. Thus, "infused righteousness" and "imputed righteousness" work harmoniously to make us inheritor of eternal life and have access to that Trinitarian relationship which no atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. could ever imagine.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul



  24. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    No, that's not what I meant. I was just saying that there is an external and internal change in us that are factors of our being entitled to Heaven. That which is wrought in us (because of the Holy Spirit giving us new hearts) and that which is declared of us (because of what Christ has done, despite us) are the means by which the Father reconciles us to Himself. Thus, "infused righteousness" and "imputed righteousness" work harmoniously to make us inheritor of eternal life and have access to that Trinitarian relationship which no atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. could ever imagine.

    Well, the WCF says that it is not anything wrought in us which entitles us to heaven:

    I. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

  26. #82

    How About Some "Sola Scriptura"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Well, the WCF says that it is not anything wrought in us which entitles us to heaven:
    Well, it's a good thing that the WCF is not the ultimate standard of truth for our faith, Sola.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Well, it's a good thing that the WCF is not the ultimate standard of truth for our faith, Sola.
    But I think the Bible is clear as well that anything wrought in us by the Holy Spirit is not salvific. Neither pre or post justification works of righteousness are salvific.

    Remember, the heresy of the Galatians was post-justification acts of righteousness were needed for salvation. Paul said "After starting with the Spirit, are you trying to be made perfect by the flesh"?

  28. #84

    The Bible is Clear

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    But I think the Bible is clear as well that anything wrought in us by the Holy Spirit is not salvific. Neither pre or post justification works of righteousness are salvific.

    Remember, the heresy of the Galatians was post-justification acts of righteousness were needed for salvation. Paul said "After starting with the Spirit, are you trying to be made perfect by the flesh"?
    Wait a minute. Are you saying that God giving us a new heart has nothing to do with salvation? How else can we be born again (made into new creatures) if our natures are not changed by the Holy Spirit, from within?

    Also, the heresy that Paul was warning the Galatian Christians about was the doctrine that one must be circumcised under the Old Covenant laws before one could become a Christian, from the Judaizers' mindset. That is what Paul is referring to when he asks, "Are you trying to be made perfect by the flesh?"
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Wait a minute. Are you saying that God giving us a new heart has nothing to do with salvation? How else can we be born again (made into new creatures) if our natures are not changed by the Holy Spirit, from within?

    Also, the heresy that Paul was warning the Galatian Christians about was the doctrine that one must be circumcised under the Old Covenant laws before one could become a Christian, from the Judaizers' mindset. That is what Paul is referring to when he asks, "Are you trying to be made perfect by the flesh?"
    It doesn't matter what post-justification work you add to Christ's already perfect work (circumcision, charity, honesty, etc) the result is the same. If you go down the path of law for justification, you must do ALL of the law.
    Galatians 5:3-4

    Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
    And since man cannot do this, it is his death sentence. This is how serious this issue is. These people were alienated from the very sphere of grace.

    The Judiazers said that simply one post-justification act of righteousness was needed for salvation. But others in Rome and the Federal Vision have made the Judiazers look like amateurs. They say many, many post-justification works of righteousness are needed for salvation. They are like Judiazers on steroids.

    What is needed for salvation?

    Galatians 3:10-14
    For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

    Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”

    The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

    He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

  30. #86

    Check Your Terms

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    It doesn't matter what post-justification work you add to Christ's already perfect work (circumcision, charity, honesty, etc) the result is the same. If you go down the path of law for justification, you must do ALL of the law.

    And since man cannot do this, it is his death sentence. This is how serious this issue is. These people were alienated from the very sphere of grace.

    The Judiazers said that simply one post-justification act of righteousness was needed for salvation. But others in Rome and the Federal Vision have made the Judiazers look like amateurs. They say many, many post-justification works of righteousness are needed for salvation. They are like Judiazers on steroids.

    What is needed for salvation?

    Galatians 3:10-14
    Justification is not salvation, Sola. You're equivocating, which is a logical fallacy.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Justification is not salvation, Sola. You're equivocating, which is a logical fallacy.
    But every person who is justified will be ultimately saved from God's wrath. You cannot have justification and end up not having salvation.

  32. #88

    "Having Salvation"?

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    But every person who is justified will be ultimately saved from God's wrath. You cannot have justification and end up not having salvation.
    Salvation is not an ontological thing, erowe1, like an object which one can lose (like his car keys or his wallet). Salvation is an act of deliverance. So, someone can be saved from something and declared innocent by a judge, but then turn around go right back to the enemy from which he was saved. That happens all of the time, and in Scripture, it tells us that it can happen. That's why Paul warns justified Christians to not turn away from the Faith, but to persevere. It wouldn't make sense of Paul to give warnings about apostasy to those who are justified in Christ if it was never possible for them to fall away.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul



  33. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Salvation is not an ontological thing, erowe1, like an object which one can lose (like his car keys or his wallet). Salvation is an act of deliverance. So, someone can be saved from something and declared innocent by a judge, but then turn around go right back to the enemy from which he was saved. That happens all of the time, and in Scripture, it tells us that it can happen. That's why Paul warns justified Christians to not turn away from the Faith, but to persevere. It wouldn't make sense of Paul to give warnings about apostasy to those who are justified in Christ if it was never possible for them to fall away.

    Sadly, this is the argument that any Roman Catholic, Arminian, or Open Theist would make, and it is why so many solid Reformed people have stood so strongly against Federal Vision/neolegalism. Can't you see how this is a denial of justification by faith??? How can you not Theo?

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Salvation is not an ontological thing, erowe1, like an object which one can lose (like his car keys or his wallet). Salvation is an act of deliverance. So, someone can be saved from something and declared innocent by a judge, but then turn around go right back to the enemy from which he was saved. That happens all of the time, and in Scripture, it tells us that it can happen. That's why Paul warns justified Christians to not turn away from the Faith, but to persevere. It wouldn't make sense of Paul to give warnings about apostasy to those who are justified in Christ if it was never possible for them to fall away.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Theocrat again.
    grrr

    This is something our respective faith traditions have in common.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Helium infused beer.
    By RJB in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-25-2015, 02:50 AM
  2. First marijuana-infused meals sold from food truck in Washington
    By Natural Citizen in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-29-2014, 11:08 PM
  3. Infused righteousnes: a damnable heresy
    By Christian Liberty in forum Peace Through Religion
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 04-12-2014, 12:42 PM
  4. Replies: 155
    Last Post: 03-19-2014, 07:49 AM
  5. "A jihad for righteousness?" is a good thing?
    By paulbot24 in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-05-2012, 03:54 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •