Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 184

Thread: Martin Luther: Christ died for all.

  1. #1

    Default Martin Luther: Christ died for all.

    I read this commentary on 1 John 2 at Blueletterbible.com. Interesting quote from Martin Luther. I'm sure certain people will engage their usual cheap tricks to avoid the truth. (Martin Luther is being misunderstood. Or "Well Martin Luther is just wrong here. I hope he repents or else he'll be lost even though it's impossible to lose your salvation.)

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/comme...topic=1%20John
    1 John 2 - Hindrances to Fellowship with God

    A. Fellowship and the problem of sin.

    1. (1a) A purpose of John in writing this letter: that you may not sin.

    My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.

    a. These things I write to you, that you may not sin: 1 John 1:8 makes it clear that sin is a fact (at least an occasional fact) in the life of the Christian. 1 John 1:9 makes it clear that there is always forgiveness for confessed sin. Yet, John wants it also to be clear that the Christian should be concerned about sin. One reason in writing this letter was that you may not sin.

    i. John previously rebuked the idea that we can become sinlessly perfect (1 John 1:8). At the same time, he wants to make it clear that we do not have to sin. God does not make the believer sin.

    b. That you may not sin: This is God's desire for the believer. If sin is inevitable for us, it is not because God has decreed that we must sin. All the resources for spiritual victory are ours in Jesus Christ and that resource is never withdrawn.

    i. John addresses this because of the issue of relationship with God (1 John 1:3), and the fact that sin can break our fellowship with God (1 John 1:6). He wants to make it clear that God has not made a system where we must break fellowship with Him through sin.

    ii. The weakness comes in our flesh, which is not consistently willing to rely on Jesus for victory over sin. God promises that one day the flesh will be perfected through resurrection.

    2. (1b-2) Help for the sinner and the restoration of fellowship.

    And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

    a. We have an Advocate: God’s desire is that you may not sin. Yet if we do, there is provision made - an Advocate, a defense lawyer on our side. Our Advocate is Jesus Christ Himself.

    i. Lenski on the ancient word for Advocate: “Demosthenes uses it to designate the friends of the accused who voluntarily step in and personally urge the judge to decide in his favor.”

    b. We have an Advocate: Jesus is our defender, even when we sin now. God is not shocked by human behavior. He has seen it all in advance. He didn’t forgive you at one time to later say, “Look what they did now! If I would have known they would go and do that, I would have never forgiven them.” His forgiveness is available to us now.

    i. It is as if we stand as the accused in the heavenly court, before our righteous Judge, God the Father. Our Advocate stands up to answer the charges: “He is completely guilty your honor. In fact, he has even done worse than what he is accused of, and now makes full and complete confession before You.” The gavel slams, and the Judge asks, “what should his sentence be?” Our Advocate answers, “His sentence shall be death; he deserves the full wrath of this righteous court.” All along, our accuser Satan, is having great fun at all this. We are guilty! We admit our guilt! We see our punishment! But then, our Advocate asks to approach the bench. As he draws close to the Judge, he simply says: “Dad, this one belongs to Me. I paid his price. I took the wrath and punishment from this court that he deserves.” The gavel sounds again, and the Judge cries out, “Guilty as charged! Penalty satisfied!” Our accuser starts going crazy. “Aren’t you even going to put him on probation?” “No!” the Judge shouts. “The penalty has been completely paid by My Son. There is nothing to put him on probation for.” Then the Judge turns to our Advocate, and says, “Son, you said this one belongs to You. I release him into Your care. Case closed!”

    c. We have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: We may think that our sin sets God against us. But God’s love is so great that in His love, He went to the ultimate measure to make us able to stand in the face of His holy righteousness. Through Jesus, God can be for us even when we are guilty sinners.

    i. A human defense lawyer argues for the innocence of his client. But our Advocate, Jesus Christ, admits our guilt - and then enters His plea on our behalf, as the one who has made an atoning sacrifice for our sinful guilt.

    ii. Jesus Christ the righteous means that Jesus is fully qualified to serve as our Advocate, because He Himself is sinlessly perfect. He has passed heaven’s bar exam, and is qualified to represent clients in heaven’s court of law.

    iii. We need Jesus as our Advocate because Satan accuses us before God (Revelation 12:10). We need to distinguish between the condemning accusation of Satan and the loving conviction of the Holy Spirit.

    d. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins: This means that Jesus is the one who atones for and takes away our sins, and not only our sins, but also the sins of the whole world.

    i. Propitiation has the idea of presenting a gift to the gods, so as to turn away the displeasure of the gods. The Greeks thought of this in the sense of man essentially bribing the gods into doing favors for man. But in the Christian idea of propitiation, God Himself presents Himself (in Jesus Christ) as that which will turn away His righteous wrath against our sin.

    ii. Alford on propitiation: “The word implies that Christ has, as our sin-offering, reconciled God and us by nothing else but by His voluntary death as a sacrifice: has by this averted God’s wrath from us.”

    e. And not for ours only but also for the whole world: Though Jesus made His propitiation for the whole world, yet the whole world is not saved and in fellowship with God. This is because atonement does not equal forgiveness. The Old Testament Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16:34) demonstrates this, when the sin of all Israel was atoned for every year at the day of Atonement, yet not all of Israel was saved.

    i. The words "but also for the whole world" announce to the world that God has taken care of the sin problem by the propitiation of Jesus Christ. Sin need not be a barrier between God and man, if man will receive the propitiation God has provided in Jesus.

    ii. "The reason of the insertion of the particular here, is well given by Luther: 'It is a patent fact that thou too are part of the whole world: so that thine heart cannot deceive itself and think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me.' " (Alford)

    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Martin Luther is wrong here. I hope he repented of this false gospel.

    It's strange because earlier in Luther's writings, he affirmed limited atonement, but later on he went back to his old Roman Catholic view of universal atonement. John Calvin was the opposite. Early in his writings he seemed to affirm universal atonement, but then later on he became more consistent on limited atonement.

    There are a couple of things to remember:

    1. The Reformers were ardent Roman Catholic priests. Their primary concern (at the beginning) was to reform the Roman Catholic Church. It is not rational and it does not display an understanding of sinful human nature to think that the Reformers (especially the first Reformers to break away from Rome) would have no vestiges of the Roman heresies in their theology. The waffling on universal atonement is one evidence of this.

    2. One of the good things that came out of the Reformation was the principle of Scripture Alone, which is a thoroughly Biblical principle. You see, as a Biblical Christian, I do not look at Martin Luther and John Calvin the way a Seventh Day Adventist views Ellen G. White. Luther and Calvin are not divine and they are not prophets. Luther and Calvin have not given infallible interpretations of the Bible. They were wrong on several points, and there are men who are much more consistent than them that I would look to as representative of my own personal beliefs. But the most important thing to understand is that SCRIPTURE ALONE stands above every interpretation of man and judges it rightly or wrongly. The Bible teaches that Christ's atonement was for the elect, so let God be true and every man a liar.

    3. Universal atonement is a FATAL error. It is an error so egregious that it cuts out the very heart of the gospel itself: the power of Christ's atoning blood. If Christ's sacrifice was made for every man, then that means His sacrifice was made for men who will be in Hell for all eternity. And if this is the case, then it is not Christ's blood which saves...it is something else. The very heart of the gospel itself is limited or efficacious atonement. Christ died for His sheep, and His death perfectly saves them.
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 12-25-2012 at 12:40 PM.

  4. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Martin Luther is wrong here. I hope he repented of this false gospel.

    It's strange because earlier in Luther's writings, he affirmed limited atonement, but later on he went back to his old Roman Catholic view of universal atonement. John Calvin was the opposite. Early in his writings he seemed to affirm universal atonement, but then later on he became more consistent on limited atonement.

    There are a couple of things to remember:

    1. The Reformers were ardent Roman Catholic priests. Their primary concern (at the beginning) was to reform the Roman Catholic Church. It is not rational and it does not display an understanding of sinful human nature to think that the Reformers (especially the first Reformers to break away from Rome) would have no vestiges of the Roman heresies in their theology. The waffling on universal atonement is one evidence of this.

    2. One of the good things that came out of the Reformation was the principle of Scripture Alone, which is a thoroughly Biblical principle. You see, as a Biblical Christian, I do not look at Martin Luther and John Calvin the way a Seventh Day Adventist views Ellen G. White. Luther and Calvin are not divine and they are not prophets. Luther and Calvin have not given infallible interpretations of the Bible. They were wrong on several points, and there are men who are much more consistent than them that I would look to as representative of my own personal beliefs. But the most important thing to understand is that SCRIPTURE ALONE stands above every interpretation of man and judges it rightly or wrongly. The Bible teaches that Christ's atonement was for the elect, so let God be true and every man a liar.

    3. Universal atonement is a FATAL error. It is an error so egregious that it cuts out the very heart of the gospel itself: the power of Christ's atoning blood. If Christ's sacrifice was made for every man, then that means His sacrifice was made for men who will be in Hell for all eternity. And if this is the case, then it is not Christ's blood which saves...it is something else. The very heart of the gospel itself is limited or efficacious atonement. Christ died for His sheep, and His death perfectly saves them.
    How about Christ's sacrifice was a gift offered to every man but those who choose not to accept the gift will be separate and apart from God and that is what hell is?

  5. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    How about Christ's sacrifice was a gift offered to every man but those who choose not to accept the gift will be separate and apart from God and that is what hell is?
    Isn't that another way of saying that the cross only saves those who choose to accept the gift, that is the elect?

  6. #5
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    How about Christ's sacrifice was a gift offered to every man but those who choose not to accept the gift will be separate and apart from God and that is what hell is?
    That is the same thing as saying it is not Christ's blood that saves. What you are proposing is that salvation is conditioned on man's will in choosing, not the blood of Christ. This is not the gospel and it cuts out the very heart of the gospel: Christ's atoning blood.

  7. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Isn't that another way of saying that the cross only saves those who choose to accept the gift, that is the elect?
    The Jews were often called the elect before the Lamb of God was sacrificed, after that, the Gentiles were called the elect. Those who choose to accept the gift are the ones who are saved, the others even though they are still the elect, were too hard of heart to accept the gift.

  8. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    The Jews were often called the elect before the Lamb of God was sacrificed, after that, the Gentiles were called the elect. Those who choose to accept the gift are the ones who are saved, the others even though they are still the elect, were too hard of heart to accept the gift.
    That's true. But that's just different uses of the word "elect" to apply to people having been elected for different things. But at least one biblical use of that term is for all those who are saved by the cross. And, as you stated, that elect group does not include those who choose not to accept the gift (e.g. Romans 8:33; 11:7).

  9. #8
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    The Jews were often called the elect before the Lamb of God was sacrificed, after that, the Gentiles were called the elect. Those who choose to accept the gift are the ones who are saved, the others even though they are still the elect, were too hard of heart to accept the gift.
    No, actually God has always had an elect remnant chosen by grace..in the Old and New Covenants. Paul explains this in Romans 11:

    Romans 11:4-10 NIV

    And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

    So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written:

    "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes that could not see
    and ears that could not hear,
    to this very day."

    And David says:
    "May their table become a snare and a trap,
    a stumbling block and a retribution for them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
    and their backs be bent forever."
    Note that it is God who gave some a spirit of stupor and God who elects some by His grace. God hardens some and softens others. We are saved purely by grace.
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 12-25-2012 at 01:14 PM.

  10. #9

    Default

    Think about what is being said here. I'm tired of this discussion and I'm not going to wear myself out arguing about it. If you can't understand what is being said here, then enjoy your exclusive view.
    1 Timothy 4:4-16 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, provided it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by God's word and by prayer. 6 If you put these instructions before the brothers and sisters, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with profane myths and old wives' tales. Train yourself in godliness, 8 for, while physical training is of some value, godliness is valuable in every way, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. 11 These are the things you must insist on and teach. 12 Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I arrive, give attention to the public reading of scripture, to exhorting, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders. 15 Put these things into practice, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and your hearers. (NRS)

  11. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Think about what is being said here. I'm tired of this discussion and I'm not going to wear myself out arguing about it. If you can't understand what is being said here, then enjoy your exclusive view.
    That passage also exhibits an exclusive view, such as when it says "especially of those who believe." Apparently there is some sense in which he is their savior that is greater than the sense in which he is anyone else's.

  12. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    That passage also exhibits an exclusive view, such as when it says "especially of those who believe." Apparently there is some sense in which he is their savior that is greater than the sense in which he is anyone else's.
    Yes, but what is really important in that verse is "Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

  13. #12
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Yes, lets look at 1st Timothy 4:10:


    Ist Timothy 4:10

    For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
    This passage is not talking about soteriology at all and the atonement or the extent of the atonement is not in view with this passage.

    "Savior" here does not mean salvation in the sense that we usually think it does. It means "preserver". Notice that it does not say that CHRIST is the Savior of all men; it says that GOD is the Savior of all men. It is talking about God the Father's preservation of His creatures, with special preservation of those who believe.



    There is no question that when the Bible speaks of the atonement, it limits the atonement to believers only. Consider Ephesians 5:25-32

    Ephesians 5:25-32

    Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
    Christ's death was for HIS CHURCH (His elect). He gave Himself up for HIS CHURCH to make her holy and blameless.
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 12-25-2012 at 03:42 PM.

  14. #13
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Yes, but what is really important in that verse is "Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."
    Fisrt, see my post above this. Christ's atonement is not in view here.

    Secondly, the passage says "God IS the savior of all men..." It doesn't say "God COULD BE the savior of all men". Even if this verse had the atonement in view (it doesn't), it still would be irrational given the Arminian viewpoint...unless you want to affirm universalism.

  15. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Yes, but what is really important in that verse is "Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."
    I don't know which part is more important. But neither negates the other, and while the first part isn't exclusive, the last part is.

  16. #15

    Default Christ died for everyone.

    All were ungodly when Christ died for them.
    Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. (NRS)
    All were sinners when Christ died for them.
    1 Timothy 1:15 The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-- of whom I am the foremost.(NRS)
    While all were sinners, Christ died for them.
    Romans 5:8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. (NRS)
    He gave Himself as a ransom for all.
    1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all-- this was attested at the right time. (NRS)
    While all were enemies, God sacrificed his Son to save them.
    Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. (NRS)
    Christ tasted death for everyone.
    Hebrews 2:9 but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (NRS)
    Last edited by Dr.3D; 12-25-2012 at 04:12 PM.

  17. #16
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    All were ungodly when Christ died for them.
    Yes, the elect were ungodly before they were saved.


    All were sinners when Christ died for them.
    Yes, the elect were all sinners when Christ died for them.


    While all were sinners, Christ died for them.
    Yep, the elect were once sinners. That is why grace is so wonderful.


    He gave Himself as a ransom for all.
    The context of 1st Timothy 2 is that Christ died for all KINDS of men, even those in authority who were persecuting them. Go from the first verse of the chapter and then to the verse you quoted. Paul wants prayers for ALL KINDS of men, even the ones in authority, because Jesus died for ALL KINDS of men.


    While all were enemies, God sacrificed his Son to save them.
    Yep, God's elect were once His enemies in this life. That is what is so wonderful about grace.


    Christ tasted death for everyone.
    The book of Hebrews is full of verses that speak to the intention of the atonement. In Hebrews 2, which you quote from, it says in verse 16 about Christ: "For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants." Meaning, the children of the promise. This is Jew and Gentile. This is EVERYONE. Not every single person, but every kind of person. Salvation is not only for the Jews, it is for the whole world. Do you see the difference now?
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 12-25-2012 at 04:34 PM.

  18. #17
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Christ died for His sheep. John 10:11-31

    “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

    “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

    The Jews who heard these words were again divided. Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

    But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

    Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

    Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

    Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

    Jesus lays down His life for the sheep and gives them eternal life. The sheep hear His voice. The ones who don't believe do so precisely because they are not His sheep and Jesus does not know them.

  19. #18

    Default There is a difference between salvation and reconciliation.

    Perhaps our problem is knowing the difference between reconciliation and salvation. Christ died to give all people reconciliation. This does not mean they have salvation. It means they have the ability to have salvation. Reconciliation reverses the enmity between God and mankind resulting from Adam's transgression. The death of Jesus was an universal act of reconciliation.

    Salvation on the other hand is accomplished by being filled with the Holy Spirit to gain eternal life. Salvation is an act of God upon each specific person. God gives a person to Jesus when he confesses his faith in the resurrection of Jesus.

    The quotes below demonstrate the difference between reconciliation and salvation.

    Romans 4:20-25 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 being fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 Therefore his faith "was reckoned to him as righteousness." 23 Now the words, "it was reckoned to him," were written not for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification. (NRS)
    Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. (NRS)
    1 Corinthians 15:20-23 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. (NRS)
    2 Corinthians 5:12-15 We are not commending ourselves to you again, but giving you an opportunity to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast in outward appearance and not in the heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. 15 And he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them. (NRS)
    Ephesians 2:11-18 So then, remember that at one time you Gentiles by birth, called "the uncircumcision" by those who are called "the circumcision"-- a physical circumcision made in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us. 15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. 17 So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. (NRS)
    Colossians 1:19-23 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. 21 And you who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through death, so as to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him-- 23 provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith, without shifting from the hope promised by the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven. I, Paul, became a servant of this gospel. (NRS)

  20. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Perhaps our problem is knowing the difference between reconciliation and salvation. Christ died to give all people reconciliation. This does not mean they have salvation. It means they have the ability to have salvation. Reconciliation reverses the enmity between God and mankind resulting from Adam's transgression. The death of Jesus was an universal act of reconciliation.

    Salvation on the other hand is accomplished by being filled with the Holy Spirit to gain eternal life. Salvation is an act of God upon each specific person. God gives a person to Jesus when he confesses his faith in the resurrection of Jesus.

    The quotes below demonstrate the difference between reconciliation and salvation.
    IMHO you're right to distinguish between different things God accomplished through Christ's death, including some that are exclusively for the elect and others that extend beyond the elect, and even beyond humanity to all creation. But I don't think a simple distinction between "reconciliation" and "salvation" covers that. The one passage you presented that uses both words is Romans 5:10, and there the distinction is not that the two apply to different groups, but that reconciliation is had in this life, while salvation is something future, when the reconciled person is ultimately glorified having escaped God's judgment. But the two things both happen to the very same people. According to Romans 5:10, there is no such thing as a person who has been reconciled to God who will not ultimately be saved.

    Some books use the term "salvation" in this sense of something to come, and others of something one can have now. I think that just shows the amenability of one word to be used in different senses. The word "reconciliation" can probably also be used in different senses. So rather than say that one word is always talking about something that happens to this group and another is always talking about something that happens to another group, I'd rather look the different uses of those words in the context of complete passages, where in one context they might be talking about something that applies to all people and in another they might be talking about something that applies only to the elect. E.g. in 2 Peter 2:1 God is said to have bought people who are doomed to end up in Hell. But in Romans 8:32 it is guaranteed that if God gave up his son for someone, then he will also give that person all things, including ultimate glorification. The sense in which he bought those who go to Hell must be different than the sense in which he gave up his son for people who on account of that can't possibly go to Hell.
    Last edited by erowe1; 12-25-2012 at 07:01 PM.

  21. #20
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    The quotes below demonstrate the difference between reconciliation and salvation.
    No, the quotes you quoted EQUATE reconciliation with salvation:

    Romans 5:10

    For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. (NRS)
    Colossians 1:19-23

    For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. And you who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through death, so as to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him-- provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith, without shifting from the hope promised by the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven. I, Paul, became a servant of this gospel.




    Salvation on the other hand is accomplished by being filled with the Holy Spirit to gain eternal life.
    No, it isn't. Salvation was perfectly accomplished for God's elect people 2000 years ago, on the cross, completely outside of man's experience....and it had nothing to do with being filled with the Holy Spirit. This is the great truth of JUSTIFICATION which Paul talks about over and over again. Christians are justified (made right before God) based on what Jesus did on the cross, not what God does in the heart of a believer. Here is another verse which talks about our justification and equates it with reconciliation:

    Romans 5:9

    Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.






    God gives a person to Jesus when he confesses his faith in the resurrection of Jesus.
    No. God gives a person to Jesus, THEN they come to and confess:

    John 6:38-39

    All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
    No one can come to Jesus unless the Father enables them to come:
    John 6:65

    He [Jesus] went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

  22. #21
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    E.g. in 2 Peter 2:1 God is said to have bought people who are doomed to end up in Hell. But in Romans 8:32 it is guaranteed that if God gave up his son for someone, then he will also give that person all things, including ultimate glorification. The sense in which he bought those who go to Hell must be different than the sense in which he gave up his son for people who on account of that can't possibly go to Hell.
    Here is a great study of 2nd Peter 2:1 that really helped me understand it better:
    http://vintage.aomin.org/2PE21.html

  23. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Isn't that another way of saying that the cross only saves those who choose to accept the gift, that is the elect?
    Why do you keep blindly backing up Sola_Fide when you know he's wrong? Seriously. You and I both know you don't buy half his crap. But you buy a part of it and you just march along blindly with that part. Wake up.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 12-26-2012 at 01:04 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  24. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Martin Luther is wrong here. I hope he repented of this false gospel.
    You are the one with the provably false gospel. And this quote here proves it. Try to cowardly turn this into a fight over Ellen White all you want. But if you "hope Martin Luther repented" then that proves once and for all that you don't really believe that someone who has received grace cannot lose their salvation. The only reason to "hope Martin Luther repented" is because you "hope he was saved". And if Martin Luther was never saved in the first place than you, by your own logic, have no business listening to him or quoting from him. The same goes for John Calvin. Your belief system is theological division by zero. It's self contradictory and worthless. Thank you once again for pointing this out to anyone who is at least somewhat objective.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 12-26-2012 at 01:23 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Martin Luther is wrong here. I hope he repented of this false gospel.
    Oh yeah. And didn't I peg exactly what you'd say? Pathetic S_F.

    I read this commentary on 1 John 2 at Blueletterbible.com. Interesting quote from Martin Luther. I'm sure certain people will engage their usual cheap tricks to avoid the truth. (Martin Luther is being misunderstood. Or "Well Martin Luther is just wrong here. I hope he repents or else he'll be lost even though it's impossible to lose your salvation.)
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  26. #25
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Oh yeah. And didn't I peg exactly what you'd say? Pathetic S_F.

    I read this commentary on 1 John 2 at Blueletterbible.com. Interesting quote from Martin Luther. I'm sure certain people will engage their usual cheap tricks to avoid the truth. (Martin Luther is being misunderstood. Or "Well Martin Luther is just wrong here. I hope he repents or else he'll be lost even though it's impossible to lose your salvation.)
    So you didn't pick up on that I said that in that way because it was in your post? Guess not...

  27. #26
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    And if Martin Luther was never saved in the first place than you, by your own logic, have no business listening to him or quoting from him. The same goes for John Calvin.
    Wrong. I can quote whoever I want, anytime I want. Unbelievers say true things all the time. I can quote Seventh Day Adventist scholars right now who give a great defense of the Trinity. Are Seventh Day Adventists saved? No. Why aren't they saved? BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 12-26-2012 at 01:42 AM.

  28. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    You are the one with the provably false gospel. And this quote here proves it. Try to cowardly turn this into a fight over Ellen White all you want. But if you "hope Martin Luther repented" then that proves once and for all that you don't really believe that someone who has received grace cannot lose their salvation. The only reason to "hope Martin Luther repented" is because you "hope he was saved". And if Martin Luther was never saved in the first place than you, by your own logic, have no business listening to him or quoting from him. The same goes for John Calvin. Your belief system is theological division by zero. It's self contradictory and worthless. Thank you once again for pointing this out to anyone who is at least somewhat objective.
    You must spread some reputation around before giving it to jmdrake again.

    Hope a nice "Amen!" will suffice for now.
    "When it gets down to having to use violence, then you are playing the system's game. The establishment will irritate you - pull your beard, flick your face - to make you fight, because once they've got you violent then they know how to handle you. The only thing they don't know how to handle is non-violence and humor. "

    ---John Lennon


    "I EAT NEOCONS FOR BREAKFAST!!!"

    ---Me

  29. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Wrong. I can quote whoever I want, anytime I want. Unbelievers say true things all the time.
    That's not what you said in the Confucius thread. Once again you are showing yourself to be self-contradictory. Do you argue with yourself often? Who wins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Wrong. There is not any wisdom in these men or in these quotes. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Christ:

    The Christian man must reject the world and take every thought captive to Christ:

    This wordly wisdom is all going to roll up like a scroll in the end. It means less than nothing. The Word of the Lord stands forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Wrong. These men are as lost and ignorant as any other man who rejects that in Christ is hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Knowledge comes from Christ alone. These men were self-righteous evil doers who denied the God of the Bible. Their wisdom is dung.
    That said, are you now going on record as saying that Martin Luther and John Calvin were unbelievers?

    I can quote Roman Catholic scholars right now who give a great defense of the Trinity. Are Roman Catholics saved? No. Why aren't they saved? BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.
    So Martin Luther and John Calvin were not saved? Were they saved but only if they repented? Does that mean they were not saved before they repented if they indeed needed to repent? When Martin Luther was saying stuff that you agreed with, was he saved then? How about John Calvin? Sola_Fide, you are teaching salvation by works and you don't even realize it. Sad really.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  30. #29
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


    Posts
    31,267
    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    That's not what you said in the Confucius thread. Once again you are showing yourself to be self-contradictory. Do you argue with yourself often? Who wins?
    That said, are you now going on record as saying that Martin Luther and John Calvin were unbelievers?
    So Martin Luther and John Calvin were not saved? Were they saved but only if they repented? Does that mean they were not saved before they repented if they indeed needed to repent? When Martin Luther was saying stuff that you agreed with, was he saved then? How about John Calvin? Sola_Fide, you are teaching salvation by works and you don't even realize it. Sad really.
    I don't know if God saved Martin Luther. I don't know who the elect are. No one knows. All that we humans can do is recognize the most basic fruit of regeneration: believing the gospel. Our doctrine. If Martin Luther believed in universal atonement, and never repented and believed the gospel, then he wasn't saved. No saved person believes a false gospel. If you want a website that talks about all of the heretical things our "Calvinist church fathers" have taught, I can link you to several.

    Guess what Jmdrake, I am no respecter of person. I don't care what you call yourself, what your last name is, or what your position in a church is. If you believe a false gospel, then you are not saved.

    As far as Confucius goes. I never said that Confucius could never say anything that was true. I merely said that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Christ. If you read the first chapter of John, you would know that the Logos lights the mind of man.

  31. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    I don't know if God saved Martin Luther. I don't know who the elect are. No one knows. All that we humans can do is recognize the most basic fruit of regeneration: believing the gospel. Our doctrine. If Martin Luther believed in universal atonement, and never repented and believed the gospel, then he wasn't saved. No saved person believes a false gospel. If you want a website that talks about all of the heretical things our "Calvinist church fathers" have taught, I can link you to several.
    So what about the times when he believed limited atonement? Was he saved then? Did he pass from a state of being saved, because he believed as you do, to being lost? Because...in reality that's what you are saying even if you aren't man enough to admit it.

    Guess what Jmdrake, I am no respecter of person. I don't care what you call yourself, what your last name is, or what your position in a church is. If you believe a false gospel, then you are not saved.
    I'm not talking about whether or not you are a "respecter of person" Sola_Fide. I'm talking about whether or not you have a consistent and logical theology. And the sad truth is, you do not.

    As far as Confucius goes. I never said that Confucius could never say anything that was true. I merely said that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Christ. If you read the first chapter of John, you would know that the Logos lights the mind of man.
    You said: There is not any wisdom in these men or in these quotes. Now TER made the true and valid point that God could have revealed himself at least in part to Confucius. What TER said is in line with what you are now trying to say in your lame attempt to backpeddle. You did not "merely say that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Christ." And it's dishonest of you to try to claim that. But I've come to expect some level of dishonesty from you. I pray that Jesus will help you grow in that area in the new year as I pray he will give me patience and kindness in dealing with you.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast





Similar Threads

  1. Martin Luther King Jr. exposed
    By DevilsAdvocate in forum Peace Through Religion
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 11-06-2015, 05:30 PM
  2. Fun Poll: Who's Cooler; Martin Luther or Luther Martin?
    By Galileo Galilei in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 09-11-2012, 07:13 AM
  3. Martin Luther King was a Republican
    By IcyPeaceMaker in forum News About The Official Campaign
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-29-2008, 10:01 PM
  4. Martin Luther King Jr. Day Event DVD
    By romeshomey in forum Grassroots Central
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-13-2008, 08:49 PM
  5. Ron Paul the next Martin Luther?
    By dwdollar in forum Grassroots Central
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-06-2007, 05:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •