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Thread: Orthodox Christian sets Protestants straight

  1. #1

    Orthodox Christian sets Protestants straight




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  3. #2
    I am a secular humanist, but the thing I like about the Protestant Reformation is that it allowed the individual to worship God separate from any hierarchy. This line of thinking is exactly what enabled the enlightenment period to occur and bring us at least to the point of the US Revolution/Constitution and the whole idea of individual rights.
    Last edited by Petar; 12-26-2012 at 02:34 AM.

  4. #3
    Great video, thanks for posting.

    I agree, Protestants are as Christian as Nation of Islam members are Muslim.
    Last edited by Confederate; 12-24-2012 at 07:01 AM.

  5. #4
    I find the argument interesting.

    He says that just because we can read the bible doesn't mean that you're a christian. I would agree to a certain extent. To be a christian one must believe. When you add the works issue I think it gets complicated. Am I a christian if I believe but I don't really do anything? Am I any more of a christian because I believe and I do more christianly things? I don't know. I know we are saved by God's grace and God's grace alone.

    He criticized the church buildings. I think he was saying that when we go to church it should be like we are going on a vacation from the world. I find that intriguing. I'm friends with some guys that go to a church in a gymnasium. They do this because they believe that the church is a group of people that come and worship together and that the building doesn't really matter. I kind of like both ideas. I defintely agree that church is the community that worships but I do like the idea of having church be an escape from the world.

    He also made a big deal about communion. He said protestants aren't even christians because they don't take the eucharist every week. I really think he is pulling a pharisee here. Taking communion is just an act of faith through worship. Taking the bread and wine is only symbolic of us saying that we believe that we believe that jesus christ is the body and blood that we need to received God's grace. Jesus told us to bread bread and to follow his lead but I'm not sure that people are any less christian because they don't take the eucharist every week.

    What do you guys think? Is there any validity to this video? As christians, who are we to judge others on their walk with Christ? Can anybody really objectively say that they know whether this person is being more christian then someone else? I think that's a very hard and bold statement to make accurately. What do yo uthink?
    -Ancap-

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    I find the argument interesting.

    He says that just because we can read the bible doesn't mean that you're a christian. I would agree to a certain extent. To be a christian one must believe. When you add the works issue I think it gets complicated. Am I a christian if I believe but I don't really do anything? Am I any more of a christian because I believe and I do more christianly things? I don't know. I know we are saved by God's grace and God's grace alone.

    He criticized the church buildings. I think he was saying that when we go to church it should be like we are going on a vacation from the world. I find that intriguing. I'm friends with some guys that go to a church in a gymnasium. They do this because they believe that the church is a group of people that come and worship together and that the building doesn't really matter. I kind of like both ideas. I defintely agree that church is the community that worships but I do like the idea of having church be an escape from the world.

    He also made a big deal about communion. He said protestants aren't even christians because they don't take the eucharist every week. I really think he is pulling a pharisee here. Taking communion is just an act of faith through worship. Taking the bread and wine is only symbolic of us saying that we believe that we believe that jesus christ is the body and blood that we need to received God's grace. Jesus told us to bread bread and to follow his lead but I'm not sure that people are any less christian because they don't take the eucharist every week.

    What do you guys think? Is there any validity to this video? As christians, who are we to judge others on their walk with Christ? Can anybody really objectively say that they know whether this person is being more christian then someone else? I think that's a very hard and bold statement to make accurately. What do yo uthink?
    You ask some very good questions here and I'll try and respond to them...but not today. I have to go to Mass :P (and then a delicious Christmas dinner!) I will try and answer them from a Catholic perspective, which although not the same as the guy in the video, Traditional Catholicism is closer to Orthodoxy as any other 'Western' Christianity.

    I do with you a very merry Christmas!

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Confederate View Post
    Great video, thanks for posting.

    I agree, Protestants are as Christian as Nation of Islam members are Muslim.
    I defended the proposition that Catholics are Christian when Sola_Fide attacked you as not being Christian and I'll be damned if I sit here and let you be a Catholic version of Sola_Fide. The people running around saying half of the rest of Christendom are not Christians are the ones that aren't Christians. And as for Orthodox Christians, they're miffed that the Catholic church showed how unchristian it is by attacking and killing Orthodox Christians during one of the crusades. No church can claim it represents Christ if it persecutes others, especially fellow Christians. That said, there are Christian Catholics and Calvinists and Orthodox and Seventh-Day Adventists and Baptists and Pentacostals and a host of other branches of Christianity. Being a Christian has little to do with the creed your particular clique espouses and everything to do with the type of change Christ works on your heart. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples. By your love one for another. Apply this teaching of Christ to your life and quit running around pointing fingers at who you think is Christian and who isn't.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  8. #7
    Watched the video. Pretty stupid actually. Lot's of over generalizations and hypocrisy in it. For instance his criticism of "dance performances" in protestant churches. How about the Italian stripper who performed for Catholic priests?

    http://www.zimbio.com/The+Roman+Cath...perform+senior
    “An Italian lap dancer turned nun is to perform a religious dance in front of an audience of Roman Catholic cardinals and bishops. Anna Nobili, 38, spent years working as an exotic dancer and striptease artist in night clubs in Milan. But she swapped string bikinis and high heels for a nun’s habit after a visit to the shrine of St Francis in Assisi, a place of pilgrimage for millions of Catholics in Umbria, in 2002.

    Sister Nobili, as she became, joined an order of nuns called the Sister Workers of the Holy House of Nazareth. She claims to have been reborn by her faith in God and practises a form of “mystical” choreography which she calls “Holy Dance”. She is due to perform in front of senior Catholic clerics next week at the Holy Cross in Jerusalem Basilica, one of Rome’s best known churches. The performance, based on stories from the Old and New Testaments, will be called: “The Bible: Day and Night”.”


    Edit: At least the person in the video was honest enough to say "this is a bad video". He rambles, throws attacks protestants for a lot of things that are true about many Catholics, and makes no coherent point. Oh, and "Confederate", you realize you're being trolled right? The OP is gnostic.

    Edit 2: Ooohhhh....we have icons on our walls. And chanting. Yes, that's what makes us "authentic" Christians.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 12-26-2012 at 02:03 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    I find the argument interesting. He says that just because we can read the bible doesn't mean that you're a christian. I would agree to a certain extent.
    I think he's spot on here. There are many people very well versed in the Scriptures, including some people here like Sola_Fide, who simply interpret it in a way that suits their own agenda but pervert the true meanings. Furthermore, Scripture is not the only source of Divine Revelation. The Bible itself tells us that there is more, that there is also oral tradition in addition to written word (1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:14). God gave us the Bible, but He that is not everything He has revealed.

    It is also incredibly important to know that the Bible is not self-interpreting. 2 Peter 1:20, which states that "no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation." Here we see the Bible itself stating in no uncertain terms that its prophecies are not a matter for which the individual is to arrive at his own interpretation. It is also most telling that this verse is preceded by a section on the Apostolic witness (verses 12-18) and followed by a section on false teachers (chapter 2, verses 1-10). In Acts 8:26-40 we read the account of the deacon St. Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. In this scenario, the Holy Spirit leads Philip to approach the Ethiopian when Philip learns that the Ethiopian is reading from the prophet Isaias, he asks him a very telling question: "Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?" Even more telling is the answer given by the Ethiopian: "And how can I, unless some man show me?"

    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    To be a christian one must believe. When you add the works issue I think it gets complicated. Am I a christian if I believe but I don't really do anything? Am I any more of a christian because I believe and I do more christianly things? I don't know.
    Yes, to be a Christian one must believe, and from our faith come works. It is only through and by God's Grace that we are able to do good works, without Him we can do nothing. Good works cannot come about without faith, and faith without works is not faith at all. As Calvin said: "It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone."

    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    I know we are saved by God's grace and God's grace alone.
    This is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    He criticized the church buildings. I think he was saying that when we go to church it should be like we are going on a vacation from the world. I find that intriguing. I'm friends with some guys that go to a church in a gymnasium. They do this because they believe that the church is a group of people that come and worship together and that the building doesn't really matter. I kind of like both ideas. I defintely agree that church is the community that worships but I do like the idea of having church be an escape from the world.
    I'm going to answer this is another post later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    He also made a big deal about communion.
    I think it's important to first define what the Eucharist is to understand it's importance.

    "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Saviur instituted the Eucharist sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal [Passover] banquet “in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us."

    In the words of Archbishop Fulton Sheen:

    “...the Mass is to us the crowning act of Christian worship. A pulpit in which the words of our Lord are repeated does not unite us to Him; a choir in which sweet sentiments are sung brings us no closer to His Cross than to His garments. A temple without an altar of sacrifice is non-existent among primitive peoples, and is meaningless among Christians. And so in the Catholic Church the altar, and not the pulpit or the choir or the organ, is the center of worship, for there is re-enacted the memorial of His Passion. Its value does not depend on him who says it, or on him who hears it; it depends on Him who is the One High Priest and Victim, Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    He said protestants aren't even christians because they don't take the eucharist every week. I really think he is pulling a pharisee here.
    Protestant don't just not take the Eucharist every week, they never do. This is because they do not have a validly ordained priesthood, which is absolutely necessary to celebrate the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Protestant ecclesiastical communities lack Apostolic Succession and therefore do not have a valid priesthood. This is the position of the Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches.

    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    Taking communion is just an act of faith through worship. Taking the bread and wine is only symbolic of us saying that we believe that we believe that jesus christ is the body and blood that we need to received God's grace. Jesus told us to bread bread and to follow his lead but I'm not sure that people are any less christian because they don't take the eucharist every week.
    Taking Communion is not just symbolic. If Christ meant for it to be merely symbolic why didn't He say that? Why did He use phrases like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by John 6
    51I am the living bread which came down from heaven.
    52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.
    53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
    54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
    55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
    56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 26:28
    For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.
    Indeed many of His followers were scared and shocked at this idea and left Him. If He had meant it only symbolically, why would they have left Him? Why wouldn't He have cleared it up?

    Quote Originally Posted by John 6:66
    After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
    (Interesting how John 6:66 is a passage about people turning their backs on Christ)

    Christ was very clear that the bread is His body and the wine is His blood, not merely a representation.

    St. Ignatius of Antioch who lived in the 1st century, was one of the Apostolic Fathers and a student of St. John the Apostle said:
    I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, which is the Flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood, which is love incorruptible
    St. Justin the Martyr also wrote:
    We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true.... For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus
    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    What do you guys think? Is there any validity to this video?
    There is some validity, but it being a youtube video should be taken with a grain of salt. It is important to research all the arguments from all sides and then form your opinion. That's how I became a Catholic. I wasn't raised in a religious household and although I have always believed in God (to varying degrees over the years) and after looking at many denominations (I was interested in Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, heck even looked at Mormonism) I came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is Christ's Church.

    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    As christians, who are we to judge others on their walk with Christ? Can anybody really objectively say that they know whether this person is being more christian then someone else? I think that's a very hard and bold statement to make accurately. What do yo uthink?
    I think it's impossible to judge what is in someone's heart. Only God knows that. However, it is possible to objectively judge someone's theological views and behavior.
    Last edited by Confederate; 12-26-2012 at 07:48 AM.



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  11. #9
    Nope, I'm not sitting through a 15 minute video where the speaker spent more time on effects and making sure he was stocked up on smokes than he did on preparation for the oral component.
    If you want to play in the big leagues stop throwing like a sissy.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  12. #10
    This is because they do not have a validly ordained priesthood, which is absolutely necessary to celebrate the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
    It saddens me that you've never read the book of Hebrews, my good friend. If you can find it a bookstore, I would recommend it to you.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Petar View Post
    I am a secular humanist, but the thing I like about the Protestant Reformation is that it allowed the individual to worship God separate from any hierarchy. This line of thinking is exactly what enabled the enlightenment period to occur and bring us at least to the point of the US Revolution/Constitution and the whole idea of individual rights.
    First, nobody in the reformation "allowed" anybody to do anything. If you're speaking in terms of being "allowed" then you're talking about the state.

    Second, the enlightenment period was more about doing away with religion than anything else. You can't say there was a big scientific flowering because the enlightenment period came out of the Renaissance, which for all intents and purposes was a more backward time than the Scholastic period which preceded it. Scholastic thinkers were building mechanical astronomical clocks that predicted lunar eclipses. Renaissance thinkers were painting walls.

    Third, the concept of individual rights existed in antiquity - just not in the empires which were so interested in history as to record how great they thought they were. If you go back far enough to the civilizations that Rome spent its time trying to destroy, you'll find entire legal systems built around the idea that in order to have a crime, you have to have a victim. English law, though intended by William I to be Roman in nature, persisted in the idea that the law was there not to protect the state but to protect the individual. It is a very old idea, which unfortunately is still only partially implemented in the US Constitution, and largely as a result of the fact that they already had a concept of individual rights handed down to them.
    Last edited by fisharmor; 12-26-2012 at 09:06 AM.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  14. #12
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