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Thread: Yes, your "smart meter" will spy on you.

  1. #1

    Exclamation Yes, your "smart meter" will spy on you.

    Here's that kooky, fringe, conspiracy outfit National Geographic:

    the information collected by smart meters could reveal how many people live in a home, their daily routines, changes in those routines, what types of electronic equipment are in the home, and other details.




    Privacy Concerns Persist as Smart Meters Roll Out

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...meter-privacy/

    Christina Nunez

    For National Geographic News

    Published December 12, 2012

    Energy consultant Craig Miller, who spends much of his time working to make the smart grid a reality, got a jolt when he mentioned his work to a new acquaintance. The man, who happened to be a lineman at a Pennsylvania utility, responded earnestly: "Smart meters are a plot by Obama to spy on us."


    The encounter was a disheartening sign of the challenge ahead for proponents of the smart grid, who say that the technology can help the industry meet power demand, fix problems faster, and help consumers lower their electricity bills. Advocates of such a 21st-century grid are learning that they need to take privacy concerns seriously. Though smart meters are not, in fact, a domestic espionage scheme, they do raise questions: In a world where households start talking with the power grid, what exactly will be revealed? And who will be listening? (See related quiz: "What You Don't Know About Electricity.")

    The term "smart grid" encompasses an array of technologies that can be implemented at various points along the line of transmission from power plant to electricity user, but for many consumers, it is symbolized by one thing: the smart meter. A majority of U.S. states have begun deploying the wireless meters, which can send electricity usage information from a household back to the utility remotely at frequent intervals. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, more than 36 million smart meters were installed across the nation as of August 2012, covering about a quarter of all electrical customers. In the European Union, only 10 percent of households have smart meters but they are being deployed rapidly to meet an EU mandate that the technology reach 80 percent of households by 2020.

    Because smart meters can provide real-time readings of household energy use instead of the familiar monthly figures most customers now see in their electric bills, the devices offer a new opportunity for consumers to learn more about their own power use and save money. But the ability to track a household's energy use multiple times a day also presents some unsettling possibilities. In theory, the information collected by smart meters could reveal how many people live in a home, their daily routines, changes in those routines, what types of electronic equipment are in the home, and other details. "It's not hard to imagine a divorce lawyer subpoenaing this information, an insurance company interpreting the data in a way that allows it to penalize customers, or criminals intercepting the information to plan a burglary," the private nonprofit Electronic Frontier Foundation noted in a blog post about smart meters. (Related: "Pictures: The Energy Drain of Recreational Drugs")

    The European Union's data protection watchdog warned earlier this year that smart meters, while bringing significant potential benefits, also could be used track whether families "are away on holiday or at work, if someone uses a specific medical device or a baby-monitor, how they like to spend their free time and so on." The European Data Protection Supervisor urged that member states provide the public with more information on how the data is being handled. (Related: "The 21st Century Grid")

    A State-by-State Effort

    As with many of the rules governing utility operations, regulations to address privacy concerns in the United States are currently embedded in a patchwork of state laws and public utility commission policy. Most experts point to California as a leader: Last year, the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) adopted rules governing access to, and usage of, customer data. The state has also passed legislation that requires utilities to obtain the customer's consent for release of their information to any third party. The CPUC was involved in producing a comprehensive report on privacy with the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) that summarizes, often in chilling detail, the many ways in which privacy breaches could occur on the smart grid, and recommends best practices for preventing those breaches. "As Smart Grid implementations collect more granular, detailed, and potentially personal information, this information may reveal business activities, manufacturing procedures, and personal activities in a given location," the NIST report said.

    George Arnold, national coordinator for smart grid interoperability at NIST, points out that many of these privacy and security issues have been dealt with in the health care and telecommunications sectors, for example. "Protecting the privacy of the information [on the smart grid] has been taken very seriously. . . . I think it's a good news story that policymakers recognize the importance, and both policy and technical tools are well in hand to deal with this," Arnold said. (See related photos: "World's Worst Power Outages.")

    But no existing federal or state laws can be counted on to protect consumers' utility data as smart meters are rolled out across the country. At least one utility in California argued early on that it was subject to a number of existing laws that would address privacy concerns, according to Jim Dempsey of the Center for Democracy and Technology, which worked with the CPUC on its privacy framework. However, Dempsey's group found that no single law provided a clear answer regarding utility data, and that a new set of rules was necessary. "Almost every state has some kind of [privacy] law already," Dempsey said. "But the point is, those laws predate the smart grid, and they do not really account for the complexity of the smart-grid ecosystem."

    With other states—including Colorado, Maine, and Texas—now formulating policy on smart meters, a consensus is emerging. Jules Polonetsky of the Future of Privacy Forum, which advocates for responsible handling of consumer data, says there is general agreement that utilities should have rules that govern how they can use smart meter data, and that a customer should be able to know and have access to the data being collected. Still, Polonetsky points out that as energy-saving applications and devices (such as the Nest wireless thermostat) proliferate, state privacy frameworks may have limited power. Utility access to data is restricted, but "some device that I buy and I activate may not be subject to utility regulations," Polonetsky said. His organization has introduced a privacy seal for companies that handle smart-grid data, with the goal of highlighting companies that are being proactive about privacy.

    Resistance to smart meters in some areas, though confined to a small fraction of utility customers, has been vociferous enough that a handful of communities have declared moratoriums on installations. The city of Ojai, California, for example, declared such a moratorium in May, though it is effectively unenforceable. In Texas, one woman pulled a gun on a utility employee who was trying to install a smart meter. Beyond privacy issues, many smart-meter opponents cite fear of exposure to radio frequency waves, even though radio frequency exposure from smart meters falls "substantially below the protective limits set by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) for the general public," according to a study from the Electric Power Research Institute, the nonprofit research organization funded by the electric power industry. (Related: "Putting a (Smiley) Face on Energy Savings")

    Some states, including California and Maine, which has the highest penetration rate in the country for advanced meters, have allowed residents to opt out of smart-meter installation. So far, few customers have done so: In California, according to Chris Villarreal of the CPUC, the opt-out rate was less than half of one percent. The Texas Public Utility Commission is currently weighing whether or not to allow customers to opt out.

    Miller, the energy consultant, has been working on a $68 million effort partially funded by the U.S. Department of Energy to implement smart-grid technology with rural electric cooperatives. He said many of the concerns about smart meter privacy run counter to how utilities actually operate. "The utilities go through all kinds of effort to reduce the amount of information they get," he said. "They see no advantage [in] collecting data with no operational value. If the data did not allow you [as a utility] to make a better decision about the operation of your grid, then there's no reason for a utility to collect it, and they won't."

    High Ambitions, Low Public Awareness


    Protecting homeowner data from interested outsiders will be crucial for the electric industry as it seeks customer buy-in on the smart grid, but the real challenge may lie in boosting the interest of homeowners themselves. "Our research shows that consumers generally overwhelmingly are unaware of the smart grid [and smart meters] and don't even know what those terms mean," said Patty Durand, executive director of the Smart Grid Consumer Collaborative (SGCC), a nonprofit dedicated to consumer education about the smart grid.


    In most cases, the utility notifies the customer that the smart meter is coming, swaps in the new meter, and recovers the cost of deployment through a slight rate adjustment, so a homeowner may have little involvement in the installation process. That decreases the likelihood that a homeowner will understand what the smart meter does or how it is beneficial. (Related: "Smart Meters Take Bite Out of Electricity Theft")

    "For the longest time, the relationship between the utility and the customer has been, 'Here's the power and you can pay for it'," said Villarreal of the CPUC. "Now with smart grid and smart meters, we're asking the customers to get more involved and providing them with a lot more information, and now they're starting to ask questions."

    Villarreal said that not all utilities have been quick to embrace a world that demands more of a dialogue with customers. In response to the notion of posting a privacy policy, one utility representative from another part of the country told him, " 'We don't want to do that, because we don't want customers calling us and asking us questions about it.' That's not a very proactive response to working with your customers. You're probably just raising the ire of customers more than solving the problem," he said.

    California's public utilities have learned to employ robust communication strategies for smart-meter rollouts. San Diego Gas and Electric (SDG&E) sent out at least five notifications to customers leading up to installations. "I think that really helped, because it wasn't like it was somebody knocking on the door," said Caroline Winn, SDG&E's vice president of customer services and chief customer privacy officer. "People weren't surprised to get the smart meter when we installed them."

    While a combination of proactive communication and opt-out policies can help prevent customer confusion and minimize backlash against smart-meter rollouts, utilities have the long-term task of making sure that they add value for both customers and themselves. Some benefits involve little or no customer engagement: Smart meters can tell utilities, for example, when outages occur and help generate outage maps for customers (in the analog days, the utility didn't know about an outage unless a customer called).

    Other aspects of smart meters involve more attention from a household. Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E), which has installed 9.1 million smart meters across northern and central California at a total cost of $2.2 billion, has experimented with a variety of methods for getting customers more interested in their data. "We deploy reporting with your bill that shows you your usage compared to your neighbor's, and that's highly motivating for some people," said PG&E Chief Information Officer Karen Austin.

    PG&E's other programs include rate incentives for energy conservation during peak times, text messages that alert customers when their electricity usage crosses into a new pricing tier, and participation in the Green Button Initiative, which allows people to download their energy-usage information in a standardized format. The goal is to create a level of engagement with energy-usage data among consumers that has barely existed before. Ultimately, the hope is that when consumers see how much energy they use, they can try to use less.

    "The utilities have been challenged with not properly educating consumers and not understanding who their consumers are, because they've never had to," said Durand of the SGCC. "In the past, it's been a one-way relationship . . . but those days are over." (Related: "Can Hurricane Sandy Shed Light on Curbing Power Outages?")



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  3. #2
    You know, as an expert in this arena, I find this to be one of the most sensible articles written on this subject.

    Too many articles are opinion pieces based on propaganda; this article lays out my fears pretty well.

    I have one additional fear that this article doesn't contemplate, though. I fear that when the government is not satisfied with how people use their electric, they will begin to dictate to them how to use it. Right now, they dictate the carrot to get people to comply - when that doesn't work, they'll bring out the stick.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  4. #3
    I was hoping you'd check in on this.

    Thanks, I appreciate the input.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    You know, as an expert in this arena, I find this to be one of the most sensible articles written on this subject.

    Too many articles are opinion pieces based on propaganda; this article lays out my fears pretty well.

    I have one additional fear that this article doesn't contemplate, though. I fear that when the government is not satisfied with how people use their electric, they will begin to dictate to them how to use it. Right now, they dictate the carrot to get people to comply - when that doesn't work, they'll bring out the stick.

  5. #4
    The solution to this problem is simple. Cold fusion generators.

  6. #5
    As I said on the other thread about light bulbs, my electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by RickyJ View Post
    The solution to this problem is simple. Cold fusion generators.
    Or we could try something that's already been proven to work, like Tesla's free energy machine. I can't imagine that with enough resources we couldn't reproduce it.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Though smart meters are not, in fact, a domestic espionage scheme

    ....

    In theory, the information collected by smart meters could reveal how many people live in a home, their daily routines, changes in those routines, what types of electronic equipment are in the home, and other details.
    What kind of blind trust in the government must one have to be able to say both of these things?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    As I said on the other thread about light bulbs, my electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.
    Depending on what town you live in, you might be able to have it removed.

    Especially if you're having health problems:

    (In California) If you suspect you have health problems related to the installation of Smart Meters: file a complaint with your utility and follow up with a CPUC Complaint. Also contact the California Department of Public Health (CDPH): SmartMeter@cdph.ca.gov
    APS and SRP will remove them if requested...for now.
    Last edited by Lucille; 12-12-2012 at 03:07 PM.
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    As I said on the other thread about light bulbs, my electric bill went up significantly and inexplicably after they installed a smart meter on my house. I'm pissed and have no idea what to do, I really wish there was some market competition.
    Could be several reasons:
    1. Your old meter may have been running slow. - When the old mechanical meters age, they begin to slow down. Power companies do random sampling to make sure meters are recording correctly. They almost never run too fast (I have heard it's possible, but have never seen a case of it.)

    2. You used to be billed on the register and now you're billed on intervals. - Depending on the billing method of your company, they may decide to use intervals. Instead of figuring how much you used in a month and applying a price to it, they apply a price to every 15 (or 5, 10, or hour) interval and then add up the sums of all of the intervals. Because of rounding, this could change your bills. Most companies have complex billing routines to prevent this, but it is possible.

    3. You have a surcharge now because of your smart meter. - Sometimes, this is billed into the rates. (Depending on the state, utilities are allowed to recover the cost of the programs) Compare your old bills and new bills to see where the increase is. Is it generation? Distribution? Maybe generation rates have changed?

    4. You have an appliance that is increasing your usage. - most people do not realize it until they see an increase in their bill, but it happens ALL the time. If it coincides with a meter change, the customer is likely to blame the meter.


    There could be other reasons, but these are the first I'd check. The new meters are pretty accurate. They've usually undergone several QC tests prior to being set and the margin of erro on those tests is quite low.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  12. #10
    I'm researching getting off the grid, does anyone have an opinion about this website? http://power4patriots.com/ And if there is an emp, does it blow out your inverter? Do you need a faraday box for your system?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  13. #11
    I work for a REP (Retail Electric Provider) in Texas, which is "deregulated". I find these fears to be completely unfounded. Smart meters are a beautiful invention of capitalism not something invented by the government for spying purposes. I can imagine their use being twisted for evil by the government in places that are not deregulated, but this is no different than the "guns kill people" argument. Don't blame the technology, blame the person abusing it.

    Before smart meters, customers with bad credit had to enroll in prepaid plans with super high rates and wildly inaccurate estimations of power consumption. It was a nightmare for customer and provider alike. The other option was incredibly high rate month to month post paid plans with massive deposits. Try telling all the people who can now get deposit free, no credit check, reasonable rate electricity about the dangers of smart meters. Again, I don't know about places that aren't deregulated, but you are never forced into a smart meter plan just because you have one installed down here in the Lone Star.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt View Post
    I work for a REP (Retail Electric Provider) in Texas, which is "deregulated". I find these fears to be completely unfounded. Smart meters are a beautiful invention of capitalism not something invented by the government for spying purposes. I can imagine their use being twisted for evil by the government in places that are not deregulated, but this is no different than the "guns kill people" argument. Don't blame the technology, blame the person abusing it.

    Before smart meters, customers with bad credit had to enroll in prepaid plans with super high rates and wildly inaccurate estimations of power consumption. It was a nightmare for customer and provider alike. The other option was incredibly high rate month to month post paid plans with massive deposits. Try telling all the people who can now get deposit free, no credit check, reasonable rate electricity about the dangers of smart meters. Again, I don't know about places that aren't deregulated, but you are never forced into a smart meter plan just because you have one installed down here in the Lone Star.
    This is confusing, how does a smart meter help someone with bad credit?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    This is confusing, how does a smart meter help someone with bad credit?
    Consumption is measured daily so there is no billing process. Our basic smart plan is put $50 down, we give you $25 in free power. You then have a $75 credit from which your daily consumption is subtracted each day. You are warned when your account gets low and shut off once the balance drops below $10. No reason to run a credit check as the power is all prepaid. When the TDSPs did monthly meter reads, the REP had to estimate monthly usage based on historical and true ups were only done every 3 to 6 months, resulting in gigantic (sometimes up to $1000) credits and debits on the account.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt View Post
    Consumption is measured daily so there is no billing process. Our basic smart plan is put $50 down, we give you $25 in free power. You then have a $75 credit from which your daily consumption is subtracted each day. You are warned when your account gets low and shut off once the balance drops below $10. No reason to run a credit check as the power is all prepaid. When the TDSPs did monthly meter reads, the REP had to estimate monthly usage based on historical and true ups were only done every 3 to 6 months, resulting in gigantic (sometimes up to $1000) credits and debits on the account.
    OIC. Thnx. I never knew they did credit checks for electricity, I don't understand it, if you don't pay, they shut you off, why do they need to do a credit check?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  17. #15

    Exclamation

    Power is a government regulated monopoly.

    I do not have the free market choice to have a duplicate set of power lines run just to my house.

    These units have the ability to record and analyze entirely too much private information that goes on in my home.

    I do not have the option of just shutting off the power either, in many places that will get you condemned and your property seized.

    They are, in fact, a government enabled spy device.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt View Post
    I work for a REP (Retail Electric Provider) in Texas, which is "deregulated". I find these fears to be completely unfounded. Smart meters are a beautiful invention of capitalism not something invented by the government for spying purposes. I can imagine their use being twisted for evil by the government in places that are not deregulated, but this is no different than the "guns kill people" argument. Don't blame the technology, blame the person abusing it.

    Before smart meters, customers with bad credit had to enroll in prepaid plans with super high rates and wildly inaccurate estimations of power consumption. It was a nightmare for customer and provider alike. The other option was incredibly high rate month to month post paid plans with massive deposits. Try telling all the people who can now get deposit free, no credit check, reasonable rate electricity about the dangers of smart meters. Again, I don't know about places that aren't deregulated, but you are never forced into a smart meter plan just because you have one installed down here in the Lone Star.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    OIC. Thnx. I never knew they did credit checks for electricity, I don't understand it, if you don't pay, they shut you off, why do they need to do a credit check?
    Because you use the electricity before you pay for it. How else can they know what to charge you? There are some other instances like when you sit down at a restaurant you eat before paying for the food, but in that case cost can be tabulated and charged immediately. It's not practical or possible for the TDSPs to check usage daily. Smart meter is the technology that allows instantaneous transmission of consumption data. In the olden days, the TDSP had to make the rounds each month and read the meters manually.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt View Post
    Because you use the electricity before you pay for it. How else can they know what to charge you?

    I thought if you were a new customer they charged you a deposit in the range of the historical usage for the dwelling? And, when you paid 12 months on time, you got your dep. back. At any rate, credit checks are starting to seem more like background checks. It's getting ridiculous. Why in the hell should anyone have to give their ss# to an electric co. or any other utility co.? That's messed up.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Power is a government regulated monopoly.

    I do not have the free market choice to have a duplicate set of power lines run just to my house.

    These units have the ability to record and analyze entirely too much private information that goes on in my home.

    I do not have the option of just shutting off the power either, in many places that will get you condemned and your property seized.

    They are, in fact, a government enabled spy device.
    The government doesn't run the lines. Not in Texas at least. The "private companies" that do, TDSPs (Transmission and Distribution Service Providers), do have a government protected monopoly, but the government only has access to aggregate data legally. They are even talking about getting rid of the PUC (Public Utilities Commission), the government organization that supposedly protects the consumers from the evil, private, for-profit REPs. If they are intercepting any usage data, its being done illegally. We have to get signed documentation from the potential customer to even get their historical usage from the TDSPs. It is private information.

    And you don't have to have power flowed from these lines. In fact, if you don't pay for the power, you won't for very long.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    I thought if you were a new customer they charged you a deposit in the range of the historical usage for the dwelling? And, when you paid 12 months on time, you got your dep. back. At any rate, credit checks are starting to seem more like background checks. It's getting ridiculous. Why in the hell should anyone have to give their ss# to an electric co. or any other utility co.? That's messed up.
    You don't have to. It's a voluntary exchange. The incentive is a much better rate and the ability to pay for your power after consuming it. Historical usage is not available without the customer's consent, as I just mentioned. How the company wants to run its deposit policy is entirely up to that company.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt View Post
    You don't have to. It's a voluntary exchange. The incentive is a much better rate and the ability to pay for your power after consuming it. Historical usage is not available without the customer's consent, as I just mentioned. How the company wants to run its deposit policy is entirely up to that company.
    That's where they get you - always! By making it unreasonable, economically, to refrain from giving them your ss#. No wonder there's so much ID theft....
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    That's where they get you - always! By making it unreasonable, economically, to refrain from giving them your ss#. No wonder there's so much ID theft....
    It's unreasonable, economically, for the company not to ensure that you are going to pay for your electricity. Also, the government places moratoriums in certain situations (i.e. temps over 100 degrees for three consecutive days) in which customers can not be disconnected regardless of whether they are paying or not. If you had any idea how much bad debt is written off by electricity companies even with the given measures, you would understand the need for credit checks or a massive deposit/prepayment. I once worked for an REP that didn't run credit checks. They are no longer in business.

  25. #22
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt View Post
    It's unreasonable, economically, for the company not to ensure that you are going to pay for your electricity. Also, the government places moratoriums in certain situations (i.e. temps over 100 degrees for three consecutive days) in which customers can not be disconnected regardless of whether they are paying or not. If you had any idea how much bad debt is written off by electricity companies even with the given measures, you would understand the need for credit checks or a massive deposit/prepayment. I once worked for an REP that didn't run credit checks. They are no longer in business.
    Sorry. I will never weep for a utility company that I MUST use or I get evicted that gives me no options. They are always pricks to deal with. Always.
    "Perfect safety is not the purpose of government." - Ron Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by brushfire View Post
    "I was in the rain forest once, and it rained on me..."
    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    Ron Paul suggested a very good first step to the process of restoring sound money... It was beautiful. It left them all standing with their fiats out.
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    'Excuse us, we'll be leaving now. Oh, and you don't mind if we just steal this Constitution before we go? You @#$%s aren't using it anyway...'

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt View Post
    It's unreasonable, economically, for the company not to ensure that you are going to pay for your electricity. Also, the government places moratoriums in certain situations (i.e. temps over 100 degrees for three consecutive days) in which customers can not be disconnected regardless of whether they are paying or not. If you had any idea how much bad debt is written off by electricity companies even with the given measures, you would understand the need for credit checks or a massive deposit/prepayment. I once worked for an REP that didn't run credit checks. They are no longer in business.
    Well, like I stated, a deposit for the amount of the going monthly rate, and shutting them off for non-payment would take care of that. It wouldn't be difficult for them to pull up the previous resident's billing records to find what the average monthly usage was, and I'm not understanding why you say they need the consumer's permission when it's the company's billing records they're pulling up. This all sounds fishy to me.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by paulbot24 View Post
    Sorry. I will never weep for a utility company that I MUST use or I get evicted that gives me no options. They are always pricks to deal with. Always.
    TEXAS IS DEREGULATED. You are free to choose your provider. Did you read any of the previous comments? We are a private company; the market is very competitive. I repeatedly clarified that all my knowledge pertained only to the situation in Texas.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt View Post
    If they are intercepting any usage data, its being done illegally. We have to get signed documentation from the potential customer to even get their historical usage from the TDSPs. It is private information.
    Every jamoke that comes down the pike, looking to fold, spindle and mutilate my life into some database and put me under surveillance, from doctors to banksters to employers to the everfucking government tells me the same thing, "It's private, there are protections in place, relax, you're being paranoid".

    And lo and behold months or years later, we find out that is not the case, we've been under intense surveillance all along, and it's too late to do anything about it.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt View Post
    TEXAS IS DEREGULATED. You are free to choose your provider. Did you read any of the previous comments? We are a private company; the market is very competitive. I repeatedly clarified that all my knowledge pertained only to the situation in Texas.
    I'm sure Paulbot is referring to the co. he/she deals with.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by whoisjohngalt View Post
    TEXAS IS DEREGULATED. You are free to choose your provider. Did you read any of the previous comments? We are a private company; the market is very competitive. I repeatedly clarified that all my knowledge pertained only to the situation in Texas.
    yeah , but that's not good enough, every single American regardless of his age, income and location is entitled to competition cheap electricity as guaranteed by the Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Well, like I stated, a deposit for the amount of the going monthly rate, and shutting them off for non-payment would take care of that. It wouldn't be difficult for them to pull up the previous resident's billing records to find what the average monthly usage was, and I'm not understanding why you say they need the consumer's permission when it's the company's billing records they're pulling up. This all sounds fishy to me.
    Sure, if our company provided service to the previous customer we could look at private billing. Odds that we were the utility of choice for the prior resident is much less than 1%. The companies that run the lines ARE NOT the REPs, which actually flow the power.

    Usage varies greatly by habits of the consumer; residence is a weak indicator. Do they go to work or do they stay home all day and run air conditioner/electric heat constantly? Some people have to set their thermostat at 72 in the summer; some people tolerate temperature swings as much as possible . The difference between 76 and 72 in kWh in the summer is massive. Do they use all kinds of electronics or are they Amish?

    Power changes prices seasonally and must be bought from generators so there is no monthly going rate. A deposit that would cover an entire month of usage in March wouldn't cover a week in July. You must simultaneously charge a deposit that will hedge against non-payment but isn't big enough to drive them away.

    The entire situation is incredibly complex and has so many moving parts. Your solution is incredibly oversimplified and simply doesn't work.

  34. #30
    You could use the grid to trickle charge a 12v battery bank, then invert your power in complete privacy. Might cost $5000 for the average home without 220 devices, maybe 10k for a total electric situation; just a thought though. Basically off grid solar without the panels; you could convert to solar down the line.


    also, Prepaid-PPA is an option for folks (in some areas) that have no credit; not that it stops the spying.
    Last edited by presence; 12-12-2012 at 05:10 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


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