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Thread: People seem to be confused about what collectivism is.

  1. #31
    I think Ron is talking about the fact that some collectivist groups (like racists) think in terms of the group being its own entity, with rights of its own.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!



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  3. #32
    Well I think it's a bit childish to just hate something for being collectivistic. I define myself as an Individualist politically speaking. However, I'm an Individualist in the ancient Indo-European sense. As in, I still value things like culture, language, heritage, nations while putting a healthy emphasis on the Individual. The original Liberals & Mutualists were along that line of thinking as well.



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  5. #33

  6. #34
    I don't know ... there are two definitions according to webster:

    1: a political or economic theory advocating collective control especially over production and distribution; also : a system marked by such control

    2: emphasis on collective rather than individual action or identity

    I think stereotyping and bigotry do fall under definition 2. "All cops are bad" emphasizes collective identity, rather than the individual.
    “If you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.” -CS Lewis

    The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft.

    If our society were a forum, congress would be the illiterate troll that somehow got a hold of the only ban hammer.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by tremendoustie View Post
    I don't know ... there are two definitions according to webster:

    1: a political or economic theory advocating collective control especially over production and distribution; also : a system marked by such control

    2: emphasis on collective rather than individual action or identity

    I think stereotyping and bigotry do fall under definition 2. "All cops are bad" emphasizes collective identity, rather than the individual.
    This doesn't go far enough though, imo. What word best describes "subjugation of the individual to the group" ? To me, this is the essence of collectivism. And too often, the term is interchanged with stereotyping.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  8. #36
    I think that there is a distinction between the two, but that one can often be a symptom of the other. For instance, in a collectivist group, there is the expectation that the well being of the group is more important than any one individual member, so there can be a tendency to promote uniformity within the group....there is a need to keep the group harmonious and cohesive by emphasing shared values, beliefs, traits, characteristics, etc. This can lead to a flattening out of diversity within the group, since individuals who don't conform to the group norm, within the acceptable limits, can be viewed as undermining the group. This type of thinking can lead to a worldview where members of a group are assumed or expected to be the same...and lead to stereotyping, etc...especially by outsiders or members of an out group.

  9. #37
    t
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    It isn't a person who "groups" certain people together. So, saying all cops are bad, or all women like to shop, or all teen boys are vandals, or all blacks are this, and all gays are that, etc., etc. is not collectivism, it's stereotyping. And when it borders on bigotry, then it steps over the line into racism and prejudice.

    Collectivism, on the other hand, is the subjugation of the individual to the group. "For the good of the whole", or "the common good". Therefore, it is acceptable to sacrifice an individual for the sake of the group. Collectivists view the group as an entity of its own, with rights of its own. The government is the ultimate group, but cults, and some minority groups are collectivists too. Of course, it begs the question: who gets to choose who will be sacrificed for the greater good? In the case of the government, well, we know the answer to that.

    Socialism and communism are built on collectivist thinking. I remember a time in school when students had to do an exercise called, "The Life Boat". Does anyone else remember that? You had 5 people in the boat but only enough supplies to sustain 4, so you had to make a choice who was going overboard, and it was based on how useful the people in the boat were. It was a lesson (indoctrination) in collectivism. It was also a subtle way to teach kids to devalue life, in my opinion.

    Anyway, I thought it needed to be clarified because a lot people on these forums seem to think collectivism and stereotyping are the same thing.
    I remember doing that exercise in college. I was the one arguing that I can't judge an individual life, no matter what I think of them. It wasn't my place to judge. The others would try to convince me that I had to choose someone. There was a choice of someone who was extremely evil and they tried to make me believe that evil was whatever I wanted it to be in order to excuse the killing of that person. The exercise, I thought was pretty barbaric, but it was a lot more expansive than you just mentioned, including things like animals and an injured person to weight against the group.
    Last edited by PaulConventionWV; 12-14-2012 at 01:16 PM.
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  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I get the distinction you're making, Deb. However, there is also a collectivist viewpoint which looks at an individual and only sees the group to which the observer thinks they belong. Not necessarily stereotyping that individual, but grouping that individual into a collective. For example, "you shouldn't care about X since your group likes Z".

    Am I describing the distinction well enough? It's not looking at the individual and thinking they should be like other individuals from that group. It's looking at the individual and thinking they should be in lock step with that group, or their ideas don't matter if they're not in lock step with that group.
    "It's not looking at the individual and thinking they should be like other individuals from that group. It's looking at the individual and thinking they should be in lock step with that group."

    Those sound like the exact same things. What's the difference?
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  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    t

    I remember doing that exercise in college. I was the one arguing that I can't judge an individual life, no matter what I think of them. It wasn't my place to judge. The others would try to convince me that I had to choose someone. There was a choice of someone who was extremely evil and they tried to make me believe that evil was whatever I wanted it to be in order to excuse the killing of that person. The exercise, I thought was pretty barbaric, but it was a lot more expansive than you just mentioned, including things like animals and an injured person to weight against the group.
    What year? I think it was 1974 for me, junior high! We were put into groups and had to decide as a group. It was so disturbing at the time. I don't remember details.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    "All cops are bad" - Stereotyping because you are saying all cops are the same. However, if you do not like the institution of law enforcement and you say "Cops are bad", you are now talking about the collective. Further, and this is where I think we're falling into the gray area, if you see an individual cop and view him, not as an individual, but only as a representation of the collective, that is collectivism as well.

    Make sense? I'm having difficulty putting this into words.

    In short,
    If you think person A is like all other persons in a collective, it's stereotyping.
    If you see person A only as a representation of the collective, it's collectivism. Person A is no longer seen as an individual (the same or different from the rest of the collective), they are seen as the collective.

    (damn, I tried again. Not sure I'm succeeding.)
    It makes sense to me. Saying the word "all" means you are addressing every single member of the group, individually. Saying the word that refers to the group without addressing the individual is collectivism because it doesn't even see the individual as being relevant.

    Therefore, when I say "all cops are bad", it's not collectivism. It's stereotyping. However, not all stereotyping is illegitimate. Collectivism is illegitimate because it subjugates a person to the group without considering their individuality.

    Is that roughly what you are saying?
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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeHampshire View Post
    Well I think it's a bit childish to just hate something for being collectivistic. I define myself as an Individualist politically speaking. However, I'm an Individualist in the ancient Indo-European sense. As in, I still value things like culture, language, heritage, nations while putting a healthy emphasis on the Individual. The original Liberals & Mutualists were along that line of thinking as well.
    What do you mean by "Indo-European" in this context? In linguistics, this refers to a language family spread throughout the Indian sub-continent and Westward. I haven't found many "individualist" cultures in that region prior to the rise of classical Liberalism in the West. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

    ETA: here's a map of the Indo-European language family-
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Collectivists view the group as an entity of its own, with rights of its own.
    SPOT ON! (Emphasis mine). Individuals have Rights, not groups. Collectivism has nothing to do with "lumping people together". It's about undermining the DoI and BoR. It's a recipe for justifying positive Rights and necessarily the State.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by tremendoustie View Post
    I don't know ... there are two definitions according to webster:

    1: a political or economic theory advocating collective control especially over production and distribution; also : a system marked by such control

    2: emphasis on collective rather than individual action or identity

    I think stereotyping and bigotry do fall under definition 2. "All cops are bad" emphasizes collective identity, rather than the individual.
    So perhaps stereotyping is just another form of collectivism? So stereotyping is collectivism, but collectivism isn't necessarily stereotyping..
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  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    What year? I think it was 1974 for me, junior high! We were put into groups and had to decide as a group. It was so disturbing at the time. I don't remember details.
    Lol this was just 4 years ago. Come to think of it, it's been a while, but that was my freshman year of college and it seems like yesterday. It was in an English class that was part of the generally required curriculum for that school.
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  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    "It's not looking at the individual and thinking they should be like other individuals from that group. It's looking at the individual and thinking they should be in lock step with that group."

    Those sound like the exact same things. What's the difference?
    Force. Stereotyping is assuming that all members of a group share some similar characteristic. I don't think there is actual collectivism until coercion becomes part of the equation, though. Subjugating individuals or minorities to the will of the majority, etc.

    For by art is created that great ‘Leviathan’ called a ‘Commonwealth’ or ‘State,’ in Latin civitas, which is but an artificial man, though of greater stature and strength than the natural, for whose protection and defence it was intended;
    - Thomas Hobbes

    Collectivism is when the group literally has it's own distinct identity or personality, as an entity in of itself, which all members of the group identify with.
    Last edited by July; 12-14-2012 at 06:42 PM.

  19. #46
    Collectivism is the excuse for reverse discrimination. Whites are passed over for the 'good of the group'. What happens when the affirmative action hire's lack of qualification threatens the safety of the group? Is that justifiable? I've never heard the supporters' answer that question.

  20. #47
    Our education system is another example of failed collectivism. School standards are lowered to allow minorities to pass, and it affects most other members of the group. How many times have you seen someone type 'should of' instead of the correct 'should have'? This would never be allowed when I went to school. Now it's commonplace.

  21. #48
    Failed collectivism in law enforcement. They are not allowed to profile vehicles because of the fear of stereotyping.
    Newscasts describe the clothing of a suspect, but not the race, for fear of stereotyping one group as the perpetrators, even if it's true. They don't look at fixing the actual problem.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    What do you mean by "Indo-European" in this context? In linguistics, this refers to a language family spread throughout the Indian sub-continent and Westward. I haven't found many "individualist" cultures in that region prior to the rise of classical Liberalism in the West. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

    ETA: here's a map of the Indo-European language family-

    Well I just meant being an Individualist but still having nationalist feelings. Like what the ancient Greeks and other tribes believed. Not hyper-individualism in the Ayn Rand sense.


    Early Aryans, despite their tendency to individuate, were highly conscious of themselves as a distinct
    group. Both the Greeks and the Romans looked upon everyone else as
    “barbarians,” and we have already
    seen the high degree of racial consciousness that pertained among the
    Indo-Aryans. Aryans were also
    closely attached to family units, not
    only the nuclear family but also the
    clans in which their society was organized, and clan warfare in Ireland
    and Scotland, family-based political
    factionalism among the Romans, and
    conflicts among the many independent
    city-states of ancient Greece were notorious as forces that tended to keep
    these populations divided. It was
    groups like race, nationality, clan,
    community, class, and family that established the social fabric of early Aryan life, and individualism in the
    modern sense of a John Stuart Mill or
    Ayn Rand—as a belief that justifies
    the individual neglecting or betraying
    his social bonds—did not exist.
    Nevertheless, the Aryans exhibited
    a high degree of individuation, and
    this is reflected in their mythology as
    well as in their art. The gods and heroes of the Greeks and the Norsemen
    have far more distinctive personalities
    than such Egyptian deities as Isis and
    Osiris, and the stories the Greeks and
    Norsemen told about their gods and
    heroes—the embittered and wrathful
    Achilles and the wily Odysseus, the
    imperious Zeus and the dashing
    Apollo, the angry Ares and the comic
    lame god Hephaestus, the jealous Hera
    and the lascivious Aphrodite—are far
    richer than the thin tales of Egypt and
    Babylonia. There is also a greater



    http://www.amren.com/ar/pdfs/1996/199612ar.pdf

  24. #50
    I'm bumping this because periodically I notice the conflation of stereotyping and collectivism. I'm noticing it a lot lately, probably because I've been on the forums more.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    I'm bumping this because periodically I notice the conflation of stereotyping and collectivism. I'm noticing it a lot lately, probably because I've been on the forums more.
    Good idea. ~hugs~
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

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