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Thread: People seem to be confused about what collectivism is.

  1. #1

    Default People seem to be confused about what collectivism is.

    It isn't a person who "groups" certain people together. So, saying all cops are bad, or all women like to shop, or all teen boys are vandals, or all blacks are this, and all gays are that, etc., etc. is not collectivism, it's stereotyping. And when it borders on bigotry, then it steps over the line into racism and prejudice.

    Collectivism, on the other hand, is the subjugation of the individual to the group. "For the good of the whole", or "the common good". Therefore, it is acceptable to sacrifice an individual for the sake of the group. Collectivists view the group as an entity of its own, with rights of its own. The government is the ultimate group, but cults, and some minority groups are collectivists too. Of course, it begs the question: who gets to choose who will be sacrificed for the greater good? In the case of the government, well, we know the answer to that.

    Socialism and communism are built on collectivist thinking. I remember a time in school when students had to do an exercise called, "The Life Boat". Does anyone else remember that? You had 5 people in the boat but only enough supplies to sustain 4, so you had to make a choice who was going overboard, and it was based on how useful the people in the boat were. It was a lesson (indoctrination) in collectivism. It was also a subtle way to teach kids to devalue life, in my opinion.

    Anyway, I thought it needed to be clarified because a lot people on these forums seem to think collectivism and stereotyping are the same thing.
    Last edited by Deborah K; 12-10-2012 at 01:29 PM.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.



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  3. #2

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    PSA from deb.
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  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    It isn't a person who "groups" certain people together. So, saying all cops are bad, or all women like to shop, or all teen boys are vandals, or all blacks are this, and all gays are that, etc., etc. is not collectivism, it's stereotyping. And when it borders on bigotry, then it steps over the line into racism and prejudice.

    Collectivism, on the other hand, is the subjugation of the individual to the group. "For the good of the whole", or "the common good". Therefore, it is acceptable to sacrifice an individual for the sake of the group. Collectivists view the group as an entity of its own, with rights of its own. The government is the ultimate group, but cults, and some minority groups are collectivists too. Of course, it begs the question: who gets to choose who will be sacrificed for the greater good? In the case of the government, well, we know the answer to that.

    Socialism and communism are built on collectivist thinking. I remember a time in school when students had to do an exercise called, "The Life Boat". Does anyone else remember that? You had 5 people in the boat but only enough supplies to sustain 4, so you had to make a choice who was going overboard, and it was based on how useful the people in the boat were. It was a lesson (indoctrination) in collectivism. It was also a subtle way to teach kids to devalue life, in my opinion.

    Anyway, I thought it needed to be clarified because a lot people on these forums seem to think collectivism and stereotyping are the same thing.


    Edit: May I have the help of a mod with the misspelling in the title? Thanks.
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  5. #4

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    I get the distinction you're making, Deb. However, there is also a collectivist viewpoint which looks at an individual and only sees the group to which the observer thinks they belong. Not necessarily stereotyping that individual, but grouping that individual into a collective. For example, "you shouldn't care about X since your group likes Z".

    Am I describing the distinction well enough? It's not looking at the individual and thinking they should be like other individuals from that group. It's looking at the individual and thinking they should be in lock step with that group, or their ideas don't matter if they're not in lock step with that group.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  6. #5

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    There is a point where stereotypes and prejudice crosses the line into collectivism. A worst case scenario, of course, would be genocide. But more typically, when we hear of "balancing rights" often what is meant is that a certain group of individuals is expected to forfeit their rights for the benefit of the larger society.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  7. #6

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    What is your definition of stereotyping?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    What is your definition of stereotyping?
    It could be anything. Probably the area in which I personally bump into it is as an adoptee. My mother didn't keep me, therefore, I have no right to my own paperwork, my own medical records, my own record of birth, etc, because I have no right to know my own name. I had a brain MRI done a couple weeks ago. It was done at a hospital. The lady who checked me into the hospital asked me if I had ever been there before. Well, I was born there. Oh wait. I wasn't me then. My medical record isn't mine. Why do I not have the right to be one, single, individual throughout the course of my life? Well, to benefit the greater good of society, of course. I mean, I'm just a little bastard who was given up at birth. Why should I have the right to point to my own medical record and declare that was me? The very fabric of society may dissolve tomorrow if I were to have the legal right to do that. (Or maybe it's because adoption is a very lucrative industry with lots of lobbyists who make up some pretty tall stereotypical tales to continue in the exchange of anonymous infants for cash.)

    Enter all the people screaming that it's for the children and that I must be bitter, selfish, and from a bad family to have "my attitude".

    It's absolutely collectivist thought based upon stereotypes. I'm outta the boat.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  9. #8

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    Don't some think that Hayek showed the definition of collectivism when he said that the largest group of people are the ones with low standards?
    See his chapter on why the worst get on top.
    Last edited by Todd; 12-10-2012 at 01:48 PM. Reason: clarified
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  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    It could be anything. Probably the area in which I personally bump into it is as an adoptee. My mother didn't keep me, therefore, I have no right to my own paperwork, my own medical records, my own record of birth, etc, because I have no right to know my own name. I had a brain MRI done a couple weeks ago. It was done at a hospital. The lady who checked me into the hospital asked me if I had ever been there before. Well, I was born there. Oh wait. I wasn't me then. My medical record isn't mine. Why do I not have the right to be one, single, individual throughout the course of my life? Well, to benefit the greater good of society, of course. I mean, I'm just a little bastard who was given up at birth. Why should I have the right to point to my own medical record and declare that was me? The very fabric of society may dissolve tomorrow if I were to have the legal right to do that. (Or maybe it's because adoption is a very lucrative industry with lots of lobbyists who make up some pretty tall stereotypical tales to continue in the exchange of anonymous infants for cash.)

    Enter all the people screaming that it's for the children and that I must be bitter, selfish, and from a bad family to have "my attitude".

    It's absolutely collectivist thought based upon stereotypes. I'm outta the boat.
    That question was for the Cap'n, but I'm glad you answered it too. And I'm glad your birth mother chose life for you, rather than death. Is your adoption closed, if I may ask?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  11. #10

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    Agree.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    Don't some think that Hayek showed the definition of collectivism when he said that the largest group of people are the ones with low standards?
    See his chapter on why the worst get on top.
    Well that sums up the gov't.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  13. #12

  14. #13

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    Stereotyping is thinking all individuals from a collective are the same.

    Collectivism is thinking the wishes of the collective are more important than the wishes of any individual within that collective.

    A collectivist viewpoint would be seeing a person from a collective and believing that person should be subservient to the wishes of that collective. Is that better? I also think it is collectivist thinking to look at a person and only seeing their collective. It's why racism is the ultimate form of collectivism.

    Racism = my collective is better than your collective. (no regard for any individuals within the group.)
    Last edited by CaptUSA; 12-10-2012 at 01:57 PM.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    That question was for the Cap'n, but I'm glad you answered it too. And I'm glad your birth mother chose life for you, rather than death. Is your adoption closed, if I may ask?
    She's not my birth mother. She's my mother. She didn't choose anything but to hold her breath and hope for a miracle that never came. Her father, my grandfather, signed the relinquishment form. And yes, I know/knew my parents. I'm not the type that will take government bs for an answer. I found them in 1987.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Stereotyping is thinking all individuals from a collective are the same.

    Collectivism is thinking the wishes of the collective are more important than the wishes of any individual within that collective.

    A collectivist viewpoint would be seeing a person from a collective and believing that person should be subservient to the wishes of that collective. Is that better? I also think it is collectivist thinking to look at a person and only seeing their collective. It's why racism is the ultimate form of collectivism.

    Racism = my collective is better than your collective. (no regard for any individuals within the group.)
    Using my examples then, and applying your definition of stereotyping, you believe that saying all "cops are bad", for example, is not stereotyping, it's thinking that they are a collective, and therefore, all the same???
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    She's not my birth mother. She's my mother. She didn't choose anything but to hold her breath and hope for a miracle that never came. Her father, my grandfather, signed the relinquishment form. And yes, I know/knew my parents. I'm not the type that will take government bs for an answer. I found them in 1987.
    Sorry. I assumed when you said you were adopted that you had the typical "birth" mother, and "adopted" mother situation. What I meant was, I'm glad you gave you a chance at life, rather than aborting you.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Using my examples then, and applying your definition of stereotyping, you believe that saying all "cops are bad", for example, is not stereotyping, it's thinking that they are a collective, and therefore, all the same???
    "All cops are bad" - Stereotyping because you are saying all cops are the same. However, if you do not like the institution of law enforcement and you say "Cops are bad", you are now talking about the collective. Further, and this is where I think we're falling into the gray area, if you see an individual cop and view him, not as an individual, but only as a representation of the collective, that is collectivism as well.

    Make sense? I'm having difficulty putting this into words.

    In short,
    If you think person A is like all other persons in a collective, it's stereotyping.
    If you see person A only as a representation of the collective, it's collectivism. Person A is no longer seen as an individual (the same or different from the rest of the collective), they are seen as the collective.

    (damn, I tried again. Not sure I'm succeeding.)
    Last edited by CaptUSA; 12-10-2012 at 02:30 PM.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Sorry. I assumed when you said you were adopted that you had the typical "birth" mother, and "adopted" mother situation. What I meant was, I'm glad you gave you a chance at life, rather than aborting you.
    Thank you.

    Having said that, facepalming, and scratching my head with both hands, isn't it odd that when I identify as an adoptee, people congratulate me on not being aborted? <sigh> All just part of the stereotype. Yes indeed. Unlike other human individuals, adoptees need to be congratulated for not being aborted. And I'm not at all directing this at you. Please, don't take it that way. I've heard it 100,000 times if I've heard it once. But the adoption lobby has really done well, haven't they? They have made it the social norm to expect that adoptees all had near misses at the abortion clinic. It's a stereotype, and it's one manner in which society justifies the exchange of anonymous children for cash.

    So I guess, yeah, I'm glad your mother didn't abort you, too. Or is that impolite if you're not adopted? Again, please don't take it personally. I'm just trying to illustrate how deeply stereotypes are ingrained and how they result in collectivist government.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    Thank you.

    Having said that, facepalming, and scratching my head with both hands, isn't it odd that when I identify as an adoptee, people congratulate me on not being aborted? <sigh> All just part of the stereotype. Yes indeed. Unlike other human individuals, adoptees need to be congratulated for not being aborted. And I'm not at all directing this at you. Please, don't take it that way. I've heard it 100,000 times if I've heard it once. But the adoption lobby has really done well, haven't they? They have made it the social norm to expect that adoptees all had near misses at the abortion clinic. It's a stereotype, and it's one manner in which society justifies the exchange of anonymous children for cash.

    So I guess, yeah, I'm glad your mother didn't abort you, too. Or is that impolite if you're not adopted? Again, please don't take it personally. I'm just trying to illustrate how deeply stereotypes are ingrained and how they result in collectivist government.
    Well I guess I walked right into that one. I apologize if I've offended you. I have adopted family members, and so I wrongly assumed your situation was similar. But your point is well taken on how ingrained stereotyping is, probably for all cultures I would imagine.

    I'm not clear on how it relates to the exchange of anonymous children for cash, and collectivism. What are you referring to there? Can you be more specific? Are you talking about the adoption process?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    "All cops are bad" - Stereotyping because you are saying all cops are the same. However, if you do not like the institution of law enforcement and you say "Cops are bad", you are now talking about the collective. Further, and this is where I think we're falling into the gray area, if you see an individual cop and view him, not as an individual, but only as a representation of the collective, that is collectivism as well.

    Make sense? I'm having difficulty putting this into words.

    In short,
    If you think person A is like all other persons in a collective, it's stereotyping.
    If you see person A only as a representation of the collective, it's collectivism. Person A is no longer seen as an individual (the same or different from the rest of the collective), they are seen as the collective.

    (damn, I tried again. Not sure I'm succeeding.)
    Collectivism is subjugation of the individual to a group. Period. That is the root of the definition. When the group's rights, or needs supercede any individual in that group. That is what distinguishes it from stereotyping. This is the point I am trying to make here. People are blurring the line so much that stereotyping has become collectivism. They can be connected, granted. But they are not the same thing. At all! I'm not making this up, I'm taking it straight from Rand and Griffin.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Collectivism is subjugation of the individual to a group. Period. That is the root of the definition. When the group's rights, or needs supercede any individual in that group. That is what distinguishes it from stereotyping. This is the point I am trying to make here. People are blurring the line so much that stereotyping has become collectivism. They can be connected, granted. But they are not the same thing. At all! I'm not making this up, I'm taking it straight from Rand and Griffin.
    Yeah, that's what the Soviets meant by "Collectivization", too. Didn't work so well in Afghanistan, though.
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  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Well I guess I walked right into that one. I apologize if I've offended you. I have adopted family members, and so I wrongly assumed your situation was similar. But your point is well taken on how ingrained stereotyping is, probably for all cultures I would imagine.

    I'm not clear on how it relates to the exchange of anonymous children for cash, and collectivism. What are you referring to there? Can you be more specific? Are you talking about the adoption process?
    Yes.

    Collectivism is essentially the political opposite of individual rights. Through the adoption process, the legal individual is destroyed. A new individual is created by the state. The ALMA decision is a good example of this, and for some reason, I can no longer find it online. ALMA asserted several things, among them that illegitimacy is a quasi-suspect class. Since the vast majority of adoptees at that time were born out of wedlock, the adoption process must hold up to a higher legal standard. The court ruled that because adoptees are issued a new birth certificate which at the time generally stated they were born to two married parents, they were not born out of wedlock. In other words, we're legally not who we were at birth.

    I told the lady at the hospital I was born there. I was. That was me. "Was" is the key word, though. I do not have a medical record of birth. I have a legal record of birth, but no medical record. I am not the same person that I was on the day I was born. Now, how can I assert my individual rights if I am not me? It's a really fun game that they play. It's a mind &^@#. Lots of smoke and mirrors. So I have the right to my medical records from the day I was born. But I was actually born 18 months before I was legally me. So for 18 months of my life, I exist only as a legal fiction. I have no records because I did not exist. I have no individual rights to exercise during that time because I wasn't. The legal person that did exist no longer exists. I cannot exercise her rights because she is not me.

    Does that make sense?

    So I have all of my rights from the day I was born creating the illusion of continuous individual rights. But since I was not born, there's a gap there. A big one.
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    Collectivisim; One person convices whole masses of other people to not use thier own thought process, to instead let him do all the thinking and call to actions. Its the idea of brainless lemmings.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    Yes.

    Collectivism is essentially the political opposite of individual rights. Through the adoption process, the legal individual is destroyed. A new individual is created by the state. The ALMA decision is a good example of this, and for some reason, I can no longer find it online. ALMA asserted several things, among them that illegitimacy is a quasi-suspect class. Since the vast majority of adoptees at that time were born out of wedlock, the adoption process must hold up to a higher legal standard. The court ruled that because adoptees are issued a new birth certificate which at the time generally stated they were born to two married parents, they were not born out of wedlock. In other words, we're legally not who we were at birth.

    I told the lady at the hospital I was born there. I was. That was me. "Was" is the key word, though. I do not have a medical record of birth. I have a legal record of birth, but no medical record. I am not the same person that I was on the day I was born. Now, how can I assert my individual rights if I am not me? It's a really fun game that they play. It's a mind &^@#. Lots of smoke and mirrors. So I have the right to my medical records from the day I was born. But I was actually born 18 months before I was legally me. So for 18 months of my life, I exist only as a legal fiction. I have no records because I did not exist. I have no individual rights to exercise during that time because I wasn't. The legal person that did exist no longer exists. I cannot exercise her rights because she is not me.

    Does that make sense?

    So I have all of my rights from the day I was born creating the illusion of continuous individual rights. But since I was not born, there's a gap there. A big one.
    Does that mean that your BC states that you are 18 months younger than you actually are since you were not issued a BC at birth? My understanding is that everyone is issued a BC at birth, but if they are adopted, a new BC is issued with the names of the new parents, but everything else stays the same. Am I missing something here?

    Edit: This is very confusing, why wouldn't they have medical records for you at the hospital you were born at?
    Last edited by Deborah K; 12-10-2012 at 03:03 PM.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Does that mean that your BC states that you are 18 months younger than you actually are since you were not issued a BC at birth? My understanding is that everyone is issued a BC at birth, but if they are adopted, a new BC is issued with the names of the new parents, but everything else stays the same. Am I missing something here?
    No, that's exactly how it is. My birth certificate states that I was born at the same time at the same place to different parents. Do you think the hospital has a record of that birth? I actually have an old log around here somewhere. My adoptive mother was working at the bank that day. She wasn't at the hospital giving birth to me. I have the right to the medical birth record wherein my adoptive mother gave birth to me because I'm the person named on that birth certificate. That record doesn't exist. I do not have the right to the medical record that does exist because I am not legally the person who was born there that day. You should have seen my eyes glaze over when all of this was being explained to me back in my teenage years.

    edited for clarity.
    Last edited by RockEnds; 12-10-2012 at 03:17 PM.
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  27. #26

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    I've always found the actual discussion on these particular notions interesting in itself. We tend to look at these concepts and define and understand them as we perceive them and in a manner in which we would like to apply a common perception of them to processes in our lives but not always in the entirety beyond just us as we relate to the whole. We're just a speck, really. It just is that way. Nothing wrong with it, I guess. Is weird. I had just got done some reading relevant to this Collectivist revolution in evolution and was reminded that the idea or debate on such concepts are thought about much differently depending upon how we as humans place them into context with how we think they relate to just us as humans and our processes both artificial and natural.

    Anyhoo. This is always an interesting topic of discussion, I think. Reminded me that I've been meaning to change my sig.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 12-10-2012 at 03:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Stereotyping is thinking all individuals from a collective are the same.
    More precisely, a stereotype is a form of statistical statement. Applied to statistically significant populations, stereotypes can be rather precise. They can be crap, too, and appear to be that more often than not. Stereotypes break down catastrophically when two conditions are met: they are applied to individuals and are applied blindly. Unfortunately, this appears to be the case far more often than not.

    Collectivism is thinking the wishes of the collective are more important than the wishes of any individual within that collective.
    I would word that a bit more strongly: it is a philosophy which asserts that human rights are additive in nature, thereby and of necessity implying that the rights of the individual suborn to those of the group and that the group may therefore employ force to compel the compliance of the individual to its will.
    Last edited by osan; 12-10-2012 at 07:39 PM.
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  29. #28

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    You mean it's not someone who collects things?

    Just like a racist is somebody who like to go to the races.

  30. #29

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    There is a distinction between being a part of a group as opposed to being that group.

    There is the career/race/age/sex/etc. that you have and then there is the collectivist lumping of a distinct definition based upon that career/race/age/sex/etc..

    I could have a certain degree of melanin in my skin which physically gives me a similar response to sunlight as others with the same degree of melanin. But just because I have that same amount of melanin in my skin does not mean that I like the same music, act the same way, talk the same way or am expected to behave the same way. The only commonality with the amount of melanin would be that I may be expected to wear a certain amount of sunscreen or not when out in the sun and be able to share such a commonality with others with the same amount of melanin.

    Same with career. There are certain things you would expect everyone in the career to have experienced and may be expected to be able to share that commonality, but beyond that they should not be expected to act the same or talk the same, etc. A person is an individual who may also be a police officer. He could be expected to have some experience with firearms and some knowledge of the law. But he does not necessarily eat donuts all day and go drink beers with the boys at O'Malley's after work.

    Thinking of everyone as their group is a form of laziness and is an easy way to live your life. If you only have to get to know a dozen or so groups and then put everyone you know or meet into that group, then you do not have to think very much about distinctions and you do not need to remember as much stuff about people. Seeing everyone as an individual and having knowledge of everyone starting at scratch and gaining knowledge of them from that base level and remembering all of that information is more difficult and requires more thought.

    The person who is hurt most by the collectivist thought are those who choose to live their lives the way they want and have to constantly fight the collectivist mentality of who they "should" be.
    Last edited by Elwar; 12-11-2012 at 09:37 AM.
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.

  31. #30

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    Given Ron's quote that "Racism is an ugly form of collectivism," his understanding seems to support what Capt is talking about. I think subjugating the individual to the whims of the majority is the ultimate destination of that kind of thought.
    Original supporter of Ron Paul since 2007 and lifelong supporter of liberty and the Constitution. I stand with Rand.

    Want to scare the daylights out of every politician in DC? Volunteer at http://www.mattbevin.com

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