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Thread: Nelson Mandela 'Proven' To Be Communist Party Member, After Decades of Denial

  1. #91
    You were saying that the Queens 'policies' (because she rules and micromanages with an iron fist) are communist.

    Mandela's actual record is at worst very mild socialism.

    For someone bringing the country out of apartheid he actually massively lowered the amount of class and race warfare going on.

    Classically communists would increase class warfare.

    But now you are arguing that dictators can't be communists.

    Communists don't actually support much of those. Several of those can only exist in capitalist systems.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care



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  3. #92
    This is why he and Ron Paul are comparable:



    The integrity and courage to lead by example in spite of intense political pressure to sell out.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    New Zealand is a Monarchy, ruled by the Queen of England. I'm just saying that Idiom is comparing apples to oranges. New Zealand is not a sovereign country.
    The Queen is a figurehead- she is not the true ruler in that she decrees laws and makes decisions as to how the country is run or what the government does. The members of the Commonwealth are not really monarchies.

    Let's read the rest of that entry at Wiki:
    The powers of the Queen and the Governor-General are limited by constitutional constraints and they cannot normally be exercised without the advice of Cabinet.[62][63]


    The Parliament of New Zealand holds legislative power and consists of the Sovereign (represented by the Governor-General) and the House of Representatives.[63] It also included an upper house, the Legislative Council, until this was abolished in 1950.[63] The supremacy of the House over the Sovereign was established in England by the Bill of Rights 1689 and has been ratified as law in New Zealand.[63] The House of Representatives is democratically elected and a Government is formed from the party or coalition with the majority of seats.[63] If no majority is formed a minority government can be formed if support from other parties during confidence and supply votes is assured. The Governor-General appoints ministers under advice from the Prime Minister, who is by convention the Parliamentary leader of the governing party or coalition.[64] Cabinet, formed by ministers and led by the Prime Minister, is the highest policy-making body in government and responsible for deciding significant government actions.[65] By convention, members of cabinet are bound by collective responsibility to decisions made by cabinet.[66]

    Judges and judicial officers are appointed non-politically and under strict rules regarding tenure to help maintain constitutional independence from the government.[57] This theoretically allows the judiciary to interpret the law based solely on the legislation enacted by Parliament without other influences on their decisions.[67] The Privy Council in London was the country's final court of appeal until 2004, when it was replaced with the newly established Supreme Court of New Zealand. The judiciary, headed by the Chief Justice,[68] includes the Court of Appeal, the High Court, and subordinate courts.[57]

    Almost all parliamentary general elections between 1853 and 1996 were held under the first past the post voting system.[69] The elections since 1930 have been dominated by two political parties, National and Labour.[69] Since 1996, a form of proportional representation called Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) has been used.[57] Under the MMP system each person has two votes; one is for the seventy electoral seats (including seven reserved for Māori),[70] and the other is for a party. The remaining fifty seats are assigned so that representation in parliament reflects the party vote, although a party has to win one electoral seat or 5 percent of the total party vote before it is eligible for these seats.[71] Between March 2005 and August 2006 New Zealand became the only country in the world in which all the highest offices in the land (Head of State, Governor-General, Prime Minister, Speaker and Chief Justice) were occupied simultaneously by women.[72]

    New Zealand is identified as one of the world's most stable and well-governed nations.[73] As of 2011, the country was ranked 5th in the strength of its democratic institutions[74] and 1st in government transparency and lack of corruption.[75] New Zealand has a high level of civic participation, with 79% voter turnout during the most recent elections, compared to an OECD average of 72%. Furthermore, 67% of New Zealanders say they trust their political institutions, far higher than the OECD average of 56%
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 12-12-2012 at 09:06 PM.

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    I said Communists/Socialists support those Big Government ideas. When you talk about Monarchies, you talking about a Dictatorship ruled by however the King/Queen wants to rule their lands.

    This thread is about Nelson Mandela and his connection to Communism.
    In the case of NZ, regardless of whether it is ruled by a monarch or by a communist sovereign regime, do they have those "big government ideas" in the works?

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    You were saying that the Queens 'policies' (because she rules and micromanages with an iron fist) are communist.
    I called a Monarchy a dictatorship.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Mandela's actual record is at worst very mild socialism.
    Nelson Mandela is a member of the Communist Party and put in place Socialist policies. As a supporter of Ron Paul, I would hope that you're against all those government policies.


    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    For someone bringing the country out of apartheid he actually massively lowered the amount of class and race warfare going on.
    That is false.

    Genocide and Communism Threaten South Africa

    24 October 2012 - South Africa is in a death spiral, as its elected communist leaders incite genocide and uprisings to bring about total control.

    South African Tells of Genocide in Communist-dominated South Africa

    06 October 2012 - Sonia Hruska spoke Oct. 2 at the Fox Valley Conservative Forum in Appleton, Wisconsin on genocide against whites in communist-dominated South Africa.

    South Africa Facing White Genocide, Total Communist Takeover

    04 August 2012 - The early phases of genocide against white farmers are possibly underway with much worse yet to come in largely communist-controlled South Africa.


    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Classically communists would increase class warfare.
    See the articles above.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    But now you are arguing that dictators can't be communists.
    I'm saying the Queen of England is not a Communist.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Communists don't actually support much of those. Several of those can only exist in capitalist systems.
    Read the Communist Manifesto please.
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    In the case of NZ, regardless of whether it is ruled by a monarch or by a communist sovereign regime, do they have those "big government ideas" in the works?
    As a Ron Paul supporter, I reject Monarchy and Communism.
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    As a Ron Paul supporter, I reject Monarchy and Communism.
    Dude, that wasn't my question. I never asked you to like Monarchy or any form of government. I was asking you if you acknowledge that NZ has the big government ideas in the works, and working, as idiom said.

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Dude, that wasn't my question. I never asked you to like Monarchy or any form of government. I was asking you if you acknowledge that NZ has the big government ideas in the works, and working, as idiom said.
    Well, what kind of Big Government policies are in place in New Zealand? Please cite explicit policies.

    There's nothing to "acknowledge" because no policies have been listed.
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    Well, what kind of Big Government policies are in place in New Zealand? Please cite explicit policies.

    There's nothing to "acknowledge" because no policies have been listed.
    These things.

    "Nelson Mandela supported all these things:
    Free Healthcare, Welfare, Gov-funded Skills Training, Gov-funded Reconstruction, Collective Bargaining, Labour Relations Board, Affirmative Action, Compulsory Schooling, Redistribution of Wealth to Poor Communities

    New Zealand has all of those things and ranks in the top 10 least restricted economies. Which I guess makes it a communist utopia. "


    See? I know how to copy and paste too.

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    These things.
    Again, Please cite explicit policies.
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    Again, Please cite explicit policies.
    Idiom, can you post them for us? Thanks.

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    Genocide and Communism Threaten South Africa

    24 October 2012 - South Africa is in a death spiral, as its elected communist leaders incite genocide and uprisings to bring about total control.

    South African Tells of Genocide in Communist-dominated South Africa

    06 October 2012 - Sonia Hruska spoke Oct. 2 at the Fox Valley Conservative Forum in Appleton, Wisconsin on genocide against whites in communist-dominated South Africa.

    South Africa Facing White Genocide, Total Communist Takeover

    04 August 2012 - The early phases of genocide against white farmers are possibly underway with much worse yet to come in largely communist-controlled South Africa.
    You basically just proved my point. With Nelson Mandela out of the picture the racial tensions and communist factions are taking over. These are the sorts of thing everyone predicted would happen immediately. Mandela held them at bay and created a very real possible peaceful integration after a peaceful transition. This is why he is held in esteem.

    The leaders following him were not nearly as far sighted.

    You might try finding things Mandela did and attacking him with his own actions.
    Last edited by idiom; 12-13-2012 at 03:59 AM.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    Read the Communist Manifesto please.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Communist Manifesto
    Nevertheless in the most advanced countries the following will be pretty generally applicable:
    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc., etc.
    These are the short term goals. Of these only #10 is similar to any of the policy prescriptions you claim Mandela implemented, and that is because in 1847 universal education was a pretty radical concept. I don't know of any libertarians advocating that children should not be educated.

    In 1991 mandatory education for children to the age of 14 is hardly a policy worthy of denouncing someone.

    I am trying to think of first world countries where you can take children and put them to work before their teenage years instead of educating them. I don't think anyone but a sub-section of an-caps think that is ideal. Also you need to separate out mandatory schooling from mandatory public schooling.

    I imagine you have a specific source showing where Mandela abolished private schooling while in power? No?
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    Well, what kind of Big Government policies are in place in New Zealand? Please cite explicit policies.

    There's nothing to "acknowledge" because no policies have been listed.
    They are pretty small government versions, but nearly all of them are functioning throughout the first world. I really don't see how this point is in dispute.

    New Zealand allows unions to exist.
    New Zealand funds public and private education to the age of 18.
    New Zealand has private and public healthcare systems.
    New Zealand has an unemployment benefit and a dependent persons benefit.
    New Zealand has no import or export tariffs.
    New Zealand has a nearly completely unregulated radio spectrum.
    New Zealand has no price controls.
    New Zealand has an aggressively deregulated utility market.
    New Zealand has almost no standing army.
    New Zealand has a very simple tax system with no capital gains taxes.
    New Zealand has no inheritance tax.
    New Zealand has no payroll tax.
    New Zealand has no healthcare tax.
    New Zealand has no social security tax and no mandatory retirement payments.
    New Zealand has no agricultural subsidies or controls, despite this being a major economic sector.
    New Zealand markets largely function on healthy voluntary self-regulating mechanisms.

    Apparently this makes it communist. As it is all holding up, then apparently communism works just fine.

    By the definitions you are using there are no non-communist governments in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Heritage Foundation
    New Zealand’s entrepreneurial environment is the most efficient and competitive among the economies graded in the Index. Start-up companies enjoy great flexibility under licensing and other regulatory frameworks. With no minimum capital required for launching a company, it can take only one day to start a business. Flexible labour regulations facilitate a dynamic labour market… and monetary stability is well maintained.
    Yeah central planning and government control are kind of hard to come by, but Mandela's policies as implemented were to the right of New Zealand.

    There are sports and arts subsides however... maybe that is what makes New Zealand so tyrannical...?
    Last edited by idiom; 12-13-2012 at 04:30 AM.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    There are sports and arts subsides however... maybe that is what makes New Zealand so tyrannical...?
    I've only said that New Zealand is ruled by the Queen of England. (Will the next King be a tyrant?)

    I didn't call New Zealand Communist, I called it a Monarchy ruled by the Queen of England.

    I just just said "read the Communist Manifesto," and Nelson Mandela actually IS a Communist.


    It almost sounds like you support a Monarchy as a Government Form. Should the United States allow the Queen of England to rule?
    ----

    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

    Inspired by US Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, this site is dedicated to facilitating grassroots initiatives that aim to restore a sovereign limited constitutional Republic based on the rule of law, states' rights and individual rights. We seek to enshrine the original intent of our Founders to foster respect for private property, seek justice, provide opportunity, and to secure individual liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Did they "enslave" them, Amy, or did they offer employment?
    Both. Black people couldn't own land or vote. I'm no fan of Mandela's wealth redistribution schemes, but I'm not an apartheid denier.

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    You basically just proved my point. With Nelson Mandela out of the picture the racial tensions and communist factions are taking over. These are the sorts of thing everyone predicted would happen immediately. Mandela held them at bay and created a very real possible peaceful integration after a peaceful transition. This is why he is held in esteem.

    The leaders following him were not nearly as far sighted.

    You might try finding things Mandela did and attacking him with his own actions.
    It wasn't peaceful. One of my friends has family there. They are white, and they lived in a house surrounded by a 10 foot concrete wall to keep the roaming gangs of armed thugs out. But armed thugs can scale walls, apparently.

    This was 5-10 years ago - long after Mandela was freed and started taking property away from white people and giving it to black people.
    Last edited by angelatc; 12-13-2012 at 08:22 AM.

  21. #108
    Mandela retired from being leader of South Africa in 1999 which would have been 13 years ago.

    http://www.lalr.org.za/news/land-ref...by-ben-cousins
    In 1994 the new democratic government set itself some very ambitious targets for land reform. Restitution clams would be resolved and implemented within 10 years. Redistribution of 30% of white-owned agricultural land would be achieved within 5 years.



    These targets were clearly unrealistic. Progress was very slow to begin with, and by the end of the Mandela era very little land had been restored or redistributed.

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