Just curious about this. Would like to hear from RPF Mormons only if possible, and keep this a bashing-free thread.
"Power tends to confuse itself with virtue...conferring upon it a special responsibility for other nations—to make them richer and happier and wiser, to remake them, that is, in its own shining image. Power confuses itself with virtue and tends also to take itself for omnipotence. Once imbued with the idea of a mission, a great nation easily assumes that it has the means as well as the duty to do God's work." - William Fulbright
Why only Mormons?
Three obvious differences are:
1. Mormons believe there are many gods. Christians believe there is only one God.
2. Mormons believe the God of our planet, Elohim, was once a man. Christians believe God has eternally been God.
3. Mormons believe that grace is necessary, but not alone sufficient, for salvation. Christians believe that God's grace is alone sufficient for salvation.
LDS Mormons reject the Trinity, believing Jesus to be God's son. But "God the father" is also a son of another God. And that god is a son of another god. And that lines goes back to the beginning. Other sects of Mormonism say otherwise.
Originally Posted by seyferjm
To prevent this:
Three obvious differences are:
1. Mormons believe there are many gods. Christians believe there is only one God.
2. Mormons believe the God of our planet, Elohim, was once a man. Christians believe God has eternally been God.
3. Mormons believe that grace is necessary, but not alone sufficient, for salvation. Christians believe that God's grace is alone sufficient for salvation.http://mormon.org/faq/mormon-christian/Gordon B. Hinckley, prior President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1995-2008), said:
“We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior...the dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ. He is the center of our faith and the head of our Church. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement.”
Not a Mormon but considering the diverse nature of people who call themselves Christian I think it is unfair to have a negative response be the first response to what the op ask for to be a non-bashing thread. Since I believe that being a Christian is something He decides and not so much something we can claim as sole ownership according to our own man centered thoughts, I felt it was necessary to post a retort in keeping with the original intent of the thread.
A Christian can judge the tree by its fruits. Much as we know a supporter of liberty by not just their words but their actions. Since only Jesus was said to be perfect all of us will be faulty in the reasoning we use to a greater or lesser extent imo. It is the Spirit within us that illuminates whether we are His.
Luke 6:43 For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit
Galatians 5:6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful naturea; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”b 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
James 3:13Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth.15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
OP I hope you get answers from the people you are seeking to respond. The link I posted has some faq's that might help you.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
Oh, I want to hear from Mormons. Particularly on these questions:
1) Is the god you worship a creature? If he was created, then why do you not worship the one who created him?
2) Do you believe that Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Methodists are worshiping the same god?
3) If you answered no to #2, then why do you want to be associated with them?
4) If you answered yes to #2, how do you explain the fact that every one of those groups would answer no to the same question?
There are no crimes against people.
There are only crimes against the state.
And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.
Moostracks, you don't know what Christianity is (offense intended by the way...I want this to offend you right now). You don't know what Christianity is and you don't know what Mormonism is. It doesn't matter what someone calls themselves, polytheism is not a Christian belief. God once being a man is not a Christian belief. What I said in my post is absolutely accurate and I defy any Mormon here to say that I have misrepresented their beliefs.
If being nice and peaceful is the definition of a Christian, then anyone could be a Christian. Nice atheists could be Christians. I'm sorry, but that is not rational (especially since in the very chapter you quote from, Paul anathematized people for BELIEVING the wrong things....read the first sentence of the chapter and get back with me).A Christian can judge the tree by its fruits. Much as we know a supporter of liberty by not just their words but their actions. Since only Jesus was said to be perfect all of us will be faulty in the reasoning we use to a greater or lesser extent imo. It is the Spirit within us that illuminates whether we are His.
Luke 6:43 For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit
Galatians 5:6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful naturea; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”b 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
James 3:13Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth.15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
OP I hope you get answers from the people you are seeking to respond. The link I posted has some faq's that might help you.
Fruits are not just necessarily a nice attitude, they are doctrine as well. The Spirit of Truth does not produce a polytheistic belief in someone. God does not regenerate a person and then cause them to believe that He was once a man. Satan does that.
DOCTRINE is the most recognizable fruit of the Spirit. That is why Paul says over and over again to hold fast to his gospel, and don't believe anything else, even if an angel from heaven preaches it to you.
Last edited by Sola_Fide; 12-08-2012 at 12:56 PM.
Read Matthew 7 S_F.
I stated that I believe we are all faulty in our understanding, even you. The only one who was perfect in understanding in the flesh was Jesus imo. So we all sin when it comes to failure of doctrine. We are given easy guidelines for knowing who is doing His will according to the gifts of the Spirit and that ain't some highbrowed discussion of doctrine required for differentiation.
Luke 6:43 For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”b 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
1John 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
1 John 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1 John 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him
It ain't about being nice, peaceful, or any of the other patronizing ways in which you wish to dismiss what a Christian is called to be. It is about love, a character trait you seem be bent on denying any responsibilty or accountabilty to display. So maybe you should seek some guidance on how you can become familiar with it. Until you have some relationship with the Holy Spirit wherein you have some knowledge of this love then you are merely seeking self glorification based upon your own knowledge, your doctrine as you so choose to define it.
A person whose doctrine is right is humble enough to realize that they are human and not perfect, including their knowledge of spiritual matters. They realize that our Heavenly Father is loving and just. They strive to live by treating others as they wish to be treated. They show mercy as they ask for mercy to be given to them.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
Ok. I read it. What is your point?
Is this an accurate description of the Mormon faith?
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
according to the people who made the cartoon, yes. I haven't heard one Mormon refute it yet.
Mormonism has more in common with the ancient Israelite religion than proto-Orthodox Christianity. Where they have a bit of a henotheistic view of God which was common among the Hebrews and later the Jews. Although, the "mormon" idea of eternal exaltation was accepted by most of the Church fathers, even the famous Augustine.
I don't recall the ancient Israel beliefs to be similar with what this video has demonstrated, and yet Mormonism is somehow more in common with the religion of ancient Israel than Orthodox Christianity? I don't see how you can say that. Can you explain further?
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
I just want to be clear that I respect highly the moral code espoused by Mormonism. Indeed, in many ways it is more according to the teachings of Christ then some other faiths which call themselves Christian and indeed are in name only, lacking the love of Christ. Mormonism I find has a noble view of salvation and though I disagree, I admire them and still call all of them my brothers.
To say however that Mormon theology is according to the teachings of the Apostles, then I would say 'when?' 'where?''in what city and in what time and in what language?' When in the 1700 years preceding Joseph Smith was such theology as in the above video ever espoused or even prophecized? A short study of the early Church will demonstrate that at no time does it teach what Mormonism teaches. So either history is wrong or Joseph Smith is wrong. Either all those before Joseph Smith were deceived or Joseph Smith was deceived. I simply cannot see any other way around this dilemma. For me, this point brings up contention where I must choose a side. And I refuse to believe the Body of Christ ever left the world, that the promise of Christ would fail. That those earliest witnesses and martyrs of the faith were left in darkness while the faith actually flourished and grew against all persecutions. Indeed, that was the time for miracles, for never had the world beheld so many miracles, since Jesus Christ came and by the Holy Spirit gave birth to the Church.
This is not a knock on Mormonism. I said I highly respect their moral teachings, especially on brotherly love and righteous living. And I consider all of them my brothers and sisters.
I'm just simply calling a spade a spade so that we can learn together that which is true and according to truth, and true to all truths, both on earth and in the heavens.
For Christ did not reveal parts to His Apostles, but He revealed to them 'all things'. From that Day of Pentecost, these men and women were enlivened, illumined, graced by the Holy Fire of the Holy Spirit, living in and outside of time by the grace of Almighty God. And to those whom they baptized and anointed, the very cloud of witnesses. Look to them to learn Who they considered Jesus Christ to be. This is where the Mormon should seek.
Although Mormonism considers itself 'Christian' and says 'Jesus Christ is the Son of God' doesn't mean they understand Who Jesus Christ is according to those who were first called as such in Antioch. Will anyone argue that these people in Antioch were not in the Church? Were they lacking something compared to us in their knowledge of Jesus Christ? Aren't we being a bit presumptuous to think so? We should vanquish our pride and vain nationalism (which can become a vehicle for pride), and look for the Church not of the world, but in the world.
I humbly would add that I think such a noble faith as Mormonism is expected, for its founders did not have the luxury we do, like the ability to do our own independent research with access to many more writings.
And lastly, I would never say that God has not touched the lives of Mormons, nor that they have not been blessed in ways by our Father in Heaven. Indeed I believe many will enter the Kingdom of Heaven before me and I make no judgment on their eternal salvation nor denounce them, as they are children of God and my brothers and sisters. I am simply giving my two cents on the matter. What I saw on that video is not according to the 2000 year old faith. The challenge of the Church of the New Testament never was when there will be a new Prophet to come and lead us to more truths. In fact, the very opposite does Christ warn, that deceivers will come.
All truths were revealed to the Apostles, indeed truths they felt unlawful to write down. The challenge was not in revealing more teachings about Who Christ is or how we are saved, but rather to hold fast and defend the teachings that were already revealed by Jesus Christ and handed down to the saints by His Holy and Life-giving Spirit. Through humility and obedience graced by God have those original teachings been preserved and preached to all natons. Likewise, when we humble ourselves before God, He gladly receives us and helps us and reveals to us truths beneficial to us according to our time and our station in life. In this hope I know my Mormon brothers agree, and in this I celebrate with them and proclaim 'Christ is Risen from the dead!'
Last edited by TER; 12-09-2012 at 12:56 AM.
No it doesn't. The Jews were fiercely monotheistic.
The Jews were not henotheistic either. They believed there was one God and many idols (false gods). That is not henotheism.Where they have a bit of a henotheistic view of God which was common among the Hebrews and later the Jews.
No. The "deification" that Augustine and others taught is nothing like the concept of eternal progression in Mormonism. Even saying something like that is evidence that you don't know what Augustine taught or what Mormons teach....probably both.Although, the "mormon" idea of eternal exaltation was accepted by most of the Church fathers, even the famous Augustine.
Let me see if I understand you. You're saying that Roman Catholics don't believe that Orthodox Christians worship the same god they do and vice versa? Because that's the way you have your "#2" written.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
No, I meant "Do you think they are worshiping the same god as Mormons", which meaning is implied by all of the other questions.
There are no crimes against people.
There are only crimes against the state.
And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.
No TER, its not. The Godmakers is specifically made to distort LDS theology. Its purpose to be like Satan, tell you just enough truths to get you to bu the grand lie it is selling. Its true understanding of LDS theology is about as accurate as Sola_Fide's understanding of faith and works and free will. I can't take time to refute it, mostly because it would take at least an hour, bare minimum. And I don't have time to waste on that garbage. But if you have the time to actually see it refuted, this link here will take you to a page where it has been done so, in detail. http://www.fairlds.org/authors/schar...the-god-makers
At the beginning of this thread, I pointed out 3 obvious differences between Christianity and Mormonism:
Where am I wrong on any of these points?Three obvious differences are:
1. Mormons believe there are many gods. Christians believe there is only one God.
2. Mormons believe the God of our planet, Elohim, was once a man. Christians believe God has eternally been God.
3. Mormons believe that grace is necessary, but not alone sufficient, for salvation. Christians believe that God's grace is alone sufficient for salvation.
I've bolded and numbered a few paragraphs in an attempt to address your main points in these paragraphs with easy reference.
1. You are absolutely right. Either the history of Christianity has errors in it or Joseph Smith was in error. The LDS answer is straight forward. After the deaths of the Apostles the Christian world fell into apostasy. They erred from the true and full teachings of Christ and followed many false leaders, the very deceivers Christ and the Apostles had warned them repeatedly would come and the beware. Over and over again in he scriptures, especially in the Epistles, the body of Christ was warned not to follow false teachers, called to correction from false doctrines, and exhorted to follow the Apostles. But the body of Christ was deceived by vain and wicked leaders, men like Diotrophes "who loved to have the per-eminence among them" who taught them to reject the Apostles, teachers who brought in the "damnable heresies" Peter warned about. And in time the fullness of true way of Christ was lost. And really that fact should be self-evident. Look at the state of Christianity today. Paul taught there should be "no schism" in the body of Christ. Yet today there are thousands of churches all claiming to be the one, true, authentic Christianity. Yet their doctrines are at complete odds with one another. Just look at you and Sola_Fide. You can't agree if men even have free will or not, or on the larger issue of what it takes to be saved. You both cannot be right. And if one of you is wrong, then that wrong one cannot be the Lord's Church. You can't both be Christian, in that sense. But what about if neither of you is right? And none of that takes into account the wars, murders, corruption, hate, genocides, love of Mammon, love of power, adultery, worship of ikons, and so much more that filled the ancient and modern Christian sects.
But back to that question. That question is one I know is scary. I know it scared me. What about all the holy men between the Apostolic Age and 1830? Are they damned to Hell? What about those who followed the various Christian faiths? Do they burn? THEY DO NOT! God has made a way possible for even the dead to be redeemed. All those who accepted Christ in the understanding they had, or do have, of Him even if they die not as "Mormon's" are acceptable to God. In the next life, the Spirit World where the dead await the Resurrection, they have a chance to accept or deny the fulness of the gospel. When Christ died he "went and preached to the spirits who were in prison" and that work of redemption continues now. All who follow, or would follow, Christ with their entire heart will be saved.
As for the promise of Christ, I assume you mean His words to Peter that Satan shall not succeed against Christ's church. If not, please explain. But if that is the case Then I can testify it has not for the Resurrected Peter, along with James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith and his scribe, Oliver Cowdrey, and recommitted to them the keys and powers of the full Priesthood of God, so long lost form the Earth. Satan did not prevail against the Church of Christ because it is present, in its fulness today with Jesus Christ as its direct head, leading by revelation and power His Church today, through the ministrations of modern Prophets and Apostles, as empowered as those of old. The season of miracles you talked about? It has returned. The sick are made whole, the dead are raised, miracles have not ceased. I personally have seen these things take place, and taken place in them. God's power is on the Earth in its might and majesty once more.
2. We argue we do understand Christ as the Apostles taught anciently. He is the Son of God, the Redeemer of the Living and the Dead. He is separate from God the Father. The Trinitarian belief is not the teachings of the Apostles but an apostate teaching that crept in after their passing. When the martyr Stephen saw into Heaven, he saw Christ standing on the right hand of God, and God sitting upon His throne. In John, during the Great Intercessory Prayer, Christ teaches that He and the Father are one, and then prays that the Apostles should be one with one another, and Him, and the Father in the exact same way Christ and the Father were one. This teaches us what Christ meant when He said He and the Father are one. He did not mean some vague, mysterious, Three-In-One God with no body, no parts, no passions. Unless you believe that is what He meant when He prayed the Apostles should all be one as He and the Father were one (which renders an odd image of some Twelve-In-One conglomerate Apostle that is ridiculous.) Christ meant He and God were one in unity, in purpose, in perfection, in light, in power, and in truth. And this same union was the prevail among the Apostles, absolute unity in purpose and cause and in reliance upon Christ. This is the Christ of the Apostles and Antioch. The Trinitarian God is the God of Nicea and of a fallen Christianity who would soon go to civil war to kill anyone who thought otherwise.
3. You are right. The challenge of New Testament Christianity was not about new prophets to come. They were prophesied of, but that was not their point. Its point was to redeem the children of God. That this video makes it out otherwise is its lying nature. It probably also makes it appear we worship Joseph Smith or hold him equal to Jesus Christ. WE DO NOT! Joseph Smith was a great man, and a prophet of God. Perhaps even the second greatest man in history. But he was only a man. He was sinful and imperfect. And any greatness he had was not of himself, but because he was an instrument in the hands of God, who did great things with him. We respect and honor Joseph Smith. We love, honor, respect, and WORSHIP Jesus Christ, the redeeming Divine Son of God, the Perfect Man, Holiness Incarnate. Jesus Christ is our Saviour, our Lord, our King.
I want to make a point about Christ's warning about false prophets. Have you wondered why Christ gave the way to tell a true prophet form a false one? He didn't just say "beware of false prophets" or say "No prophets will come after me." Rather He told us hold to tell a true prophet from a false one. Does this not teach us that not only will there be false prophets, but that there shall also be true prophets? Otherwise why instruct in how to tell the difference between the two? Christ instructed in how to look for true prophets because true prophets would come at His command.
4. Not all things were revealed to the Apostles in the Bible. But that is kind of only a semi-important side argument. The main point is, as said above, the truths of the Apostles were lost, the priesthood power was lost, men rejected the truth in its fulness. The original truths were not preserved. If they had been reformations, and "Great Schism"(s) and competing doctrines would not exist. You would not have Popes and anti-Popes. You wouldn't have popes at all. Apostles would still be leading Christianity, as in the Bible. But those truths and powers have been restored by the grace and work and power of God today.
I know these doctrines are a challenge to your beliefs. And in these things we are certainly at odds. But as your good wishes and belief in salvation for Mormons extends to me, I extend the same love, respect, and belief to you. I look forward to the day we can sit down in the kingdom of God and His Christ not only as friends and brothers, but as sons of God and rejoice forever in our Father enjoying the greatest joy possible, being full of His glory, light, and power forever.
First, Elohim is a Hebrew word, taken directly from Genesis. It literally means "Gods." Genesis 1 talks about the Gods creating the Earth. Mormons accept that at face value and do not feel the need make the scripture fit our creeds. Genesis even has God talking with others, "Let us make man is our image", "He has become as us, knowing good form evil." In the New Testament Stephen sees God the Father on His throne, and Christ standing on His right hand. At Christ's baptism Christ is in the water, the Spirit descends as the dove descends, and the Father speaks from Heaven. Three Divinites, separate and obviously so. That you do not acknowledge this is a failing on your part, not ours.
Now generally Mormons us the term "Elohim" as a name-title for the Father, but it is not his true name. AS far as I am aware of, no where are we ever told The Father's true name. But He, the Father, is not just God of the Earth, though He and Christ do both share the name-title God of The Earth or God of The Whole Earth. Rather the Father is God of everything, all Creation and all life everywhere. If there is life on other planets, He is its God. As is Christ.
Grace is the only things that saves. Our works do not save us. But that does not mean Christ does not expect us to obey Him, and to repent when we fail. You have this whole idea of what we think in your head and no matter how I've tried to dislodge it, you grasp on to it harder and faster. Its sad that you cannot even let go of your prejudices enough to allow me the freedom to actually tell you what Mormons believe and accept you are wrong.
As for you not believing God was once a man? What do you call the Incarnation? You believe that God the Father and Christ are the same Triune God, do you not? Then you believe the Father 2,000 years ago was a man named Jesus of Nazareth. We just disagree over when the Father became a man. In any case just as Jesus wa snot corrupted by His sojourn through mortality, neither was His Father before Him. That you do not know this about Him does not make us un-Christian, it just makes you ignorant of the greater truth of the Father we have gained through modern revelation.
So my first point is confirmed. I said:
And you confirm this in your first paragraph. So, just to make it plain for everyone here: Pierzstyx believes there are MANY gods, Sola_Fide believes there is ONE God.1. Mormons believe there are many gods. Christians believe there is only one God.
This confirms my second point. I said:As for you not believing God was once a man? What do you call the Incarnation? You believe that God the Father and Christ are the same Triune God, do you not? Then you believe the Father 2,000 years ago was a man named Jesus of Nazareth. We just disagree over when the Father became a man. In any case just as Jesus wa snot corrupted by His sojourn through mortality, neither was His Father before Him. That you do not know this about Him does not make us un-Christian, it just makes you ignorant of the greater truth of the Father we have gained through modern revelation.
You confim this in this paragraph. So just to make it plain to everyone here: Pierzstyx believes that God was once a man like us. Sola_Fide believes that God has eternally been God.2. Mormons believe the God of our planet, Elohim, was once a man. Christians believe God has eternally been God.
This confirms my third point. I said:Grace is the only things that saves. Our works do not save us. But that does not mean Christ does not expect us to obey Him, and to repent when we fail. You have this whole idea of what we think in your head and no matter how I've tried to dislodge it, you grasp on to it harder and faster. Its sad that you cannot even let go of your prejudices enough to allow me the freedom to actually tell you what Mormons believe and accept you are wrong.
You confirm this in this paragraph. You say that "our works do not save us", but then your next sentence is "that does not mean that He does not expect us to obey him".3. Mormons believe that grace is necessary, but not alone sufficient, for salvation. Christians believe that God's grace is alone sufficient for salvation.
So just to confirm to everyone here: Pierstyx believes that God's grace alone is not sufficient for our salvation, our obedience must be added to it. Sola_Fide believes that God's grace alone, and Christ's blood alone is the only reason that anyone is saved. Not by works.
Last edited by Sola_Fide; 12-25-2012 at 03:40 PM.
1. Yes. Mormons believe the Bible. Apparently you do not. Not surprised.
2.God has always been God from eternity to all eternity. Would you argue that Jesus Christ became less of God when He became a mortal man? I think not. The same with the Father.
And again, you also believe the Father became a man.
3. Again, Christ's atonement alone saves. But again we are commanded to spend our lives trying to obey His commandments. This is, again, what the Bible attests. But again, you do not believe the Bible.
A good quote from another forum I belong to. It was aimed at middle schoolers:
"For middle schooler's I'd probably hit the following points:
Mormons believe in the Bible, as well as the Book of Mormon.
Mormons believe that a 14 year old boy was visited by God the father and Jesus Christ (as two separate beings) in 1820 as an answer to prayer and the question "what religion is true?" This boy, Joseph Smith, was later instructed to found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Mormons believe in living prophets and a quorum of 12 apostles, who lead the church today through revelation and divine authority.
Those are the main points, I'd say. If there's additional time, there's more, but I think those are the real keys of our religion.
Things you may want to cover:
Mormons once practiced polygamy in a limited amount, but it is now practiced only by fundamentalist offshoot groups.
Mormons build temples where they perform ordinances like baptisms for those who have died who never had a chance to get baptized, and where they are 'sealed' in eternal marriage.
Mormons have a health code that they try to follow which includes no drinking alcohol, no coffee, no tobacco, no tea, no excess of meat.
I suppose you might also want to illustrate ways in which Mormonism specifically differs from Catholicism, in which case you might hit the following points:
Mormons believe that the authority of God to do his work among men was lost when the apostles died, rather than continuing with the papacy.
Mormons reject the Nicene creed.
Mormons reject the typical view of a trinity, believing instead in a godhead of three distinct beings. God and Christ being embodied.
Mormons reject the idea of original sin, and see the Fall as a necessary step in the Father's plan for our eternal salvation.
The students may be interested in the Mormon teachings about the afterlife which include things similar to purgatory before the final judgment, but also include a divided "heaven" where there are three degrees of glory: celestial, terrestrial, and telestial."
A great talk on this exact subject by a modern Apostle can be found here: https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...ation?lang=eng
Smith married girls 20 years younger than him. He didn't support them or live with them. He was a sexual predator who used 'spiritual wifery' to cover his tracks. He married 7 girls who where under 18 at the time, including a 14 year old, and two 16 year olds.
I'll take a stab. I am Mormon, but of course am not authorized to speak in behalf of the church; so these are my views, and my understandings, and are within official doctrine as far as I know, but cannot be taken as official statements.
1) We believe that we are co-eternal with God. However, God did "create" us, but not from nothing. There is something within you, that we refer to as an intelligence, which is also without beginning and without end. God created a spirit body that is inhabited by our eternal intelligence in much the same way as the physical body that was created by our earthly parents is inhabited by the spirit. If God created us ex nihilo, there would be no agency, and really the universe would be nothing more than a gigantic clockwork or even existing in God's imagination. It would be a pretty nihilistic, pointless existence. We believe that God is guiding intelligences to over millenia and eons to become as He is (and yes, He previously also went thru this experience.) Mortality is an important phase of that development as it is a time when we have a veil of unbelief cast over us - we are born in a state of being cut off from His presence. It is somewhat of a character test for the intelligence and the spirit to "show what it is made of", and given the opportunity to choose and accept responsibility for the decisions thus made. Many atheists cannot believe in God because they cannot comprehend a God that would allow a world such as we live in. God has given us all that we require for either a heaven or a hell, and allows us to choose (and live with) those choices.
So it is a bit of a paradox, to answer your question, but much about God does appear paradoxical. Yes, He was God from the beginning, in that even as an intelligence He had the attributes and character that define a God. We do not worship the being who created Him (or in a sesne we do, again a paradox) because they have become identical in divine attributes. To worship one is to worship the other. They are still individual beings, but perfectly aligned. Were we not commanded to be One as the Father and the Son are one? It doesn;t mean we are being commanded to be assimilated into the Borg.
2) I personally believe that all beings who are striving to live good lives and worship a supreme being are all worshiping the same God, but they understnad and misunderstand different of His attributes. In the Narnia books, C.S. Lewis makes a good analogy of the "heathen" that worshiped Tash (which was like the devil) rather than Aslan (Christ). But Aslan judged righteously and accepted the character of the individual rather than that he was taught an incorrect tradition by his parents. Again, I must emphasize, this is not doctrine, but I believe every person who is striving to understand the true attributes of God and serve Him, regardless of HONEST mistakes that they make, will be given future opportunities after death to ambrace truth and will be blessed according to their righteous desires and their devotion, and not be punished due to where or when they may have been born. I do believe such will partake of the blessings of the atonement. Not to say there are not those who are in open rebellion, and also there are those who ignore their conscience, or are persuaded and flattered into believe and supporting false traditions. I believe that is where danger lies, but also that is where divine judgement will have ALL of the circumstances and information, which we don't.
3) I answered yes, but I will elaborate. I believe that we should all be seeking truth, and that truth is not something that any one earthly organization encapsulates. Even one of our articles of faith says that "We believe all that God has revealed, all that he now reveals, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." I personally feel that there may be some truths out there that Buddhists understand superior to ANY Christian denomination. I also believe there are critical truths that we have that no one else does. And in a non-combative way, we should all be seeking ALL truth, true religion and true science should never be at odds or claiming supremacy, because the object of both should be an accurate understanding of your universe and our purpose. (I believe science may help more in understanding the first, and religion more in the second.)
4) I believe that if they would say no, it is because they don;t understand something that I do, but that I can't explain. We shouldn't be in competition with each other, and most such competition is more a competition by the priestly classes to expand their donation base than concern for saving souls. (Again, MY OPINION)
"The journalist is one who separates the wheat from the chaff, and then prints the chaff." - Adlai Stevenson
“I tell you that virtue does not come from money: but from virtue comes money and all other good things to man, both to the individual and to the state.” - Socrates
The Bible says there is ONE God:
Isaiah 43:10-11
...and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior.Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me"Isaiah 44:6
"'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."Isaiah 44:8
"Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none."Isaiah 45:5
"I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God."Isaiah 45:14
"Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God."
WRONG! The Bible does not say that the Father became a man, it says the eternal second Person put on flesh (Phillipians 2:5-11). This is a misunderstanding you have of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible.2.God has always been God from eternity to all eternity. Would you argue that Jesus Christ became less of God when He became a mortal man? I think not. The same with the Father. And again, you also believe the Father became a man.
There is ONE God in THREE persons. God The Father is NOT God The Son. There is a distinction in Person. But there is no distinction in Being. One in being, three in person. God the Son put on flesh, not God the Father.
Lastly, the Bible teaches that God has been God from all eternity. You believe however, and Joseph Smith taught, that Elohim was once a man like us. You believe that god and man are the same specie. Pierzstyx, I'm not like the other people here who don't know anything about Christianity and Mormonism. I know about both. You can't get anything over on me.
Well, here is really (another) disconnect between Christianity and Mormonism, because we are not even talking about the same thing when we talk about salvation. To you, you are trying to spend your life obeying the commandments because you want to show yourself worthy to be a god one day like our god Elohim did. Um...when I read Paul's epistles, I don't get anything like that...and for good reason.3. Again, Christ's atonement alone saves. But again we are commanded to spend our lives trying to obey His commandments. This is, again, what the Bible attests. But again, you do not believe the Bible.
Christianity and Mormonism are so completely foreign to each other that they use the same terms but the terms have different meanings. That is why it is useless to talk about grace and salvation before we talk about your completely satanic view of everything else.
Last edited by Sola_Fide; 12-25-2012 at 09:22 PM.
If no works are required of us, if God's grace saves all equally just for believing in him, then one could assume then that the commandments are null and not needed. After all, following the commandments is a work is it not? Should we not then eat drink and be merry, knowing that the Lord will redeem us all as equals? Why care for others, when it is not required of us.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Connect With Us