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Thread: Why we should get rid of the debt ceiling

  1. #1

    Default Why we should get rid of the debt ceiling

    "Get rid of the debt ceiling," she says. "It's a totally artificial thing. When you vote for spending and you vote for revenues there's an implicit debt number there, but it shouldn't be used as a hammer over the head of the president or anybody else…..the debt ceiling has nothing to do with the rising debt."
    http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily...3Rpb25z;_ylv=3



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  3. #2

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    Ahh! Let's all be slaves to more debt! Sounds like a plan to me.
    My 2016 prediction: Hillary Clinton will NOT run for president.

    Rand Paul 2016

  4. #3

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    Ugh, I can't stand that commie babe.
    “I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,”
    he acknowledged, but "eventually, if you want to bring about changes … what you have to do is participate in political
    action.
    ” -- Ron Paul


    "We do have some differences and our approaches will be different, but that makes him his own person. I mean why should he [Rand] be a clone and do everything and think just exactly as I have. I think it's an opportunity to be independent minded. We are about 99% the same on issues." "People Try To Drive Wedges Between Rand And Me." --Ron Paul

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=pB5JgzBVHN0

    The Property Basis of Rights

  5. #4

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    If the debt ceiling is REMOVED (not just raised) I will know that the end is nigh.

    That is the PRECISE moment in which the USA will have fallen to total dictatorship; Democrats and Obamabots will be forced to choose between good and evil in a way they never thought possible.
    "Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park

  6. #5

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    Best thing for us, really. Our therapy was going nowhere.


  7. #6

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    The debt ceiling really isn't as major of an issue that some may believe. In fact, the concept of a debt ceiling is pretty stupid. You want to lower the debt, vote for spending cuts and against spending increases.

    When you have retarded teabagger congressmen who vote for spending increases and government expansion and then votes against the debt ceiling (that essentially pays for that increased spending and government expansion they voted for in the first place) in order to pander to their idiot base who don't even know what the debt ceiling is or does, you are just asking for trouble.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohner View Post
    The debt ceiling really isn't as major of an issue that some may believe. In fact, the concept of a debt ceiling is pretty stupid.
    The original stupidity was creating a counterfeiting press as a means of self-financing from a present and future counterfeit promiser of first resort, with the option always on the table of becoming our own sole customer if all else fails.

    I say take the debt ceiling To Infinity And Beyond!


  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    The original stupidity was creating a counterfeiting press as a means of self-financing from a present and future counterfeit promiser of first resort, with the option always on the table of becoming our own sole customer if all else fails.
    True... But voting for spending increases and against debt ceiling increases (like many of these idiot teabagger politicians have done), is like voting to hire a contractor to renovate your house and voting against paying him when he's already started ripping your toilet and sink out of the floor and smashing down your walls.

    If you didn't want to pay for it, maybe you shouldn't have voted to hire a contractor to renovate your house in the first place?

    The debt ceiling isn't necessarily the problem, it's the spending bills that are.

  10. #9

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    Get rid of it and vote present on all spending and tax bills. Give the Democrats everything they want and then blame them for the collapse

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohner View Post
    True... But voting for spending increases and against debt ceiling increases (like many of these idiot teabagger politicians have done), is like voting to hire a contractor to renovate your house and voting against paying him when he's already started ripping your toilet and sink out of the floor and smashing down your walls.

    If you didn't want to pay for it, maybe you shouldn't have voted to hire a contractor to renovate your house in the first place?
    There is something in business law stare decicis jurisprudence that I have always disagreed with. Did you know that if you make a string of contributions to a charity, in even amounts on a regular or semi-regular basis, and one day you stop making any contributions...did you know that charity can sue you in court...and WIN? The logic there is that charities that become dependent on those funds plan their budgets around those now-expected future contributions, and you aren't allowed to put them into a tailspin like that. Your string of past contributions, with no consideration exchanged on their part, is now tantamount to a CONTRACT. You can get out of that contract, but not cold turkey.

    That said, a distinction needs to be made here, because if I hired a contractor to rebuild my house without calculating the costs, but later calculated those costs and determined that I couldn't afford it, or don't need those renovations, I can halt construction at any time, pay that contractor in full for the work he has done to date, and regroup. Once the contractor is paid for the work already done, screw the contractor, as he is out nothing except his future expectations, and is now free to put his productive skills to work elsewhere. That may leave me with a house in shambles, but at least it will stop the hemorrhaging, and give me time to get real about what I want done versus what I can really afford.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohner View Post
    The debt ceiling isn't necessarily the problem, it's the spending bills that are.
    I agree, but even that is not the root of the problem. For that we have to go further back, as the real reason that the debt ceiling MUST be raised really has nothing to do with spending more each year for anything, needed or not, and everything to do with maintaining the Ponzi illusion of solvency for a system that is deliberately exponential by design, and therefore never sustainable in the first place. We can't pay down the debt without revealing the Ponzi scheme for what it is, and finally allowing an end game that was always inevitable to come sooner, ultimately wrecking the entire economy.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    That said, a distinction needs to be made here, because if I hired a contractor to rebuild my house without calculating the costs, but later calculated those costs and determined that I couldn't afford it, or don't need those renovations, I can halt construction at any time, pay that contractor in full for the work he has done to date, and regroup. Once the contractor is paid for the work already done, screw the contractor, as he is out nothing except his future expectations, and is now free to put his productive skills to work elsewhere. That may leave me with a house in shambles, but at least it will stop the hemorrhaging, and give me time to get real about what I want done versus what I can really afford.
    Sort of a bad distinction. If you vote for the spending and vote against the debt ceiling, you aren't voting to halt construction. You've voted for construction to continue, you are just voting to not pay for that construction when it comes time for that construction worker to ask for his check.

    If you want to do what is happening in your analogy: A bill would need to pass a new spending bill clearly stating your intentions.

    And I agree with all the stuff about the fed... Preaching to the choir on that one

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohner View Post
    The debt ceiling really isn't as major of an issue that some may believe. In fact, the concept of a debt ceiling is pretty stupid. You want to lower the debt, vote for spending cuts and against spending increases.

    When you have retarded teabagger congressmen who vote for spending increases and government expansion and then votes against the debt ceiling (that essentially pays for that increased spending and government expansion they voted for in the first place) in order to pander to their idiot base who don't even know what the debt ceiling is or does, you are just asking for trouble.
    Yeah, I agree with you. Creates an issue out of a nonissue and diverts from the real problem.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohner View Post
    Sort of a bad distinction. If you vote for the spending and vote against the debt ceiling, you aren't voting to halt construction. You've voted for construction to continue, you are just voting to not pay for that construction when it comes time for that construction worker to ask for his check.
    Alright, let me agree with you there, and put it this way.

    Daddy and Mommy are out competing with independent warfare/welfare shopping sprees that have overextended the family budget, far, far beyond its means. Neither cares, because when the bills come due, they just call all the creditors, as they have always done, and inform them that they are going to be forced to write down some of that debt (going to pay for it with inflated currency). The creditors (read=everyone) don't really have a choice, and are forced to go along with it--while continuing to extend more credit.

    Enter Angry Teaparty Daddy, Mommy's first husband, who used to manage the bills, and has subsidized the charade all along with alimony payments that always increase year to year. He takes Mommy and Daddy to court, and puts a hold on their checking accounts. No creditors are affected yet, but they will be if Mommy and Daddy are not allowed to even pay the bills that are about to come due.

    Daddy's pissed, but Mommy is LIVID. Both insist that they want to compromise. Daddy must continue buying, but promises to sell off one of his used pistols next year. Meanwhile, Mommy is willing to compromise as well. She will make do with not quite so many of next year's closet full of shoes. Both are incensed now that Angry Teaparty Daddy is being completely unreasonable. Think of the creditors! He is actually willing to let creditors, and everyone they owe go unpaid, while wreaking havoc on that Very Necessary Line of Credit which must continuously expand, if but to keep pace with all the damage it's doing!

    Personally, I'd like to see a full scale bankruptcy. Total dissolution, not reorganization, with all the credit cards snipped once and for all. For the sake of the grandchildren, if not the children.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    Personally, I'd like to see a full scale bankruptcy. Total dissolution, not reorganization, with all the credit cards snipped once and for all. For the sake of the grandchildren, if not the children.
    That's fine if you want that but at least you seem to understand what a debt ceiling is. And the only purpose it can really serve is to do exactly what you just wrote... Bankrupt the economy.

    There are some who are in favor of having one and oppose raising it simply because of the name, but they don't really know what it is. I'm all for cutting spending and balancing budgets. But unless you have any kind of interest in intentionally bankrupting the economy, the debt ceiling isn't really necessary.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohner View Post
    That's fine if you want that but at least you seem to understand what a debt ceiling is. And the only purpose it can really serve is to do exactly what you just wrote... Bankrupt the economy.

    There are some who are in favor of having one and oppose raising it simply because of the name, but they don't really know what it is. I'm all for cutting spending and balancing budgets. But unless you have any kind of interest in intentionally bankrupting the economy, the debt ceiling isn't really necessary.
    We're on the same page, I think. I would only add that I don't think bankrupting the economy at this point is a question of intent, or even a whether-or-not. Only when, and how. I think it's an inevitability by design, with or with a debt ceiling. I'm not going to pretend that I believe it can be managed and put off forever, let alone with some good effect, because I don't. To me it's like a growing tumor that's being accepted as reality but being managed (including all the attendant pain). Complex contraptions and systems are arising that exist ONLY because of that tumor, and are all-about-that-tumor, which we think of as "life", and only because it contains living cells--forget that it's cancerous, destructive, painful, and most of all growing at a malignant pace. It will eventually to run its course, and it will eventually die. Parasites have no thought about the death of their hosts, even if it would result in their own death. Since I believe that, I have to ask, do I want it removed over 30, 40, or 50 years using thin rusty wire, if I had that option, or do I want it to be removed post haste, so that the economy can reorganize and fill in all voids with something of real value?

    It all boils down to this, in my mind: If we could breed clones of ourselves as proxies for transferring all our pain, as a species we would do it, and screw the clones and their feelings, they're not the all-important us. I can't do that. Every generation before us was presented with pain as the way to avoid passing their problems onto future generations. But we are a pleasure-maximizing, pain-avoiding species. Despite past choices to transfer the bulk of the pain to future generations, the real-time pain has gotten gradually worse over time. Well, I AM A PAST GENERATION to some future generation, and I would rather it all happen on my watch, not theirs.
    Last edited by Steven Douglas; 12-07-2012 at 06:43 PM.

  17. #16

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    The fact that mainstream republicans and Democrats are trying their best to remove the debt ceiling permanently should tell you that you are on the wrong side of this issue. Heaven forbid the country gets reminded every year or two that it can't survive without borrowing a trillion dollars + per year. They would much rather have it fly under the radar than have the populace somewhat aware of the runaway spending and debt.
    Last edited by jclay2; 12-08-2012 at 12:20 AM.

  18. #17

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    Its not like there is a ceiling anyways. Who cares.

  19. #18

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    If the debt ceiling actually mattered, getting rid of it would be a bad thing.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohner View Post
    True... But voting for spending increases and against debt ceiling increases (like many of these idiot teabagger politicians have done), is like voting to hire a contractor to renovate your house and voting against paying him when he's already started ripping your toilet and sink out of the floor and smashing down your walls.

    If you didn't want to pay for it, maybe you shouldn't have voted to hire a contractor to renovate your house in the first place?

    The debt ceiling isn't necessarily the problem, it's the spending bills that are.
    Well said. Its kinda like voting for budgets that increase spending, creating larger and larger deficits and then refuse to ever raise taxes. Govt revenue in form of taxes pay for your damn spending increases - idiots

    +rep

  21. #20
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    I feel the mention of getting rid of debt limit is treasonous to the ignorant masses .

  22. #21
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    I also think that most dumbasses have no idea of what a low quality of life most grandchildren are to have before them.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I also think that most dumbasses have no idea of what a low quality of life most grandchildren are to have before them.
    Unless they're smart enough to change the name from "debt ceiling" to "previous odius debt ceiling". Leave them alone while they beat their swords and plowshares into hard specie that they can trust, and their prospects for the future might just look a bit brighter.

    "If current trends continue, the typical U.S. worker will be considerably more productive several decades from now. Thus, one might argue that letting future generations bear the burden of population aging is appropriate, as they will likely be richer than we are, even taking that burden into account." - Ben Bernanke, October 4, 2006
    And from that "odius debt ceiling" they can hang pictures in effigy of those who specifically called for saddling them with that debt (on the premise that they would likely have more money than past generations, no less! Talk about class envy through a generation gap!)

  24. #23

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    What gets me the most is that we are already in a world of hurt and the politicians act like nothing is wrong. Toss some money over to some foreign countries, start a couple new wars, lob out a few more Homeland Security grants....
    “I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,”
    he acknowledged, but "eventually, if you want to bring about changes … what you have to do is participate in political
    action.
    ” -- Ron Paul


    "We do have some differences and our approaches will be different, but that makes him his own person. I mean why should he [Rand] be a clone and do everything and think just exactly as I have. I think it's an opportunity to be independent minded. We are about 99% the same on issues." "People Try To Drive Wedges Between Rand And Me." --Ron Paul

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=pB5JgzBVHN0

    The Property Basis of Rights

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    What gets me the most is that we are already in a world of hurt and the politicians act like nothing is wrong. Toss some money over to some foreign countries, start a couple new wars, lob out a few more Homeland Security grants....
    Translation from Keynesians left and right: "We still have our magic wand and our blank checks! Give 'er the gas, rev 'er up, put 'er through her paces, mo money mo money mo money!"

    Translation from (??): "No more playing and losing a tug-o-war that cannot be won. Time to stop fighting it, and bring this festering boil to a head, once and for all."

    "Let's not get caught. Just...keep going!" - Thelma and Louise





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