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Thread: Rand explains vote for NDAA '13

  1. #1

    Rand explains vote for NDAA '13

    I have noticed that many are confused by my vote for NDAA. Please allow me to explain.

    First, we should be clear about what the bill is. NDAA is the yearly defense authorization bill. It’s primary function is to specify which programs can and can't be funded within the Pentagon and throughout the military. It is not the bill that spends the money—that comes later in an appropriations bill.

    Because I think we should spend less, I will offer amendments to cut spending. I will likely vote against the final spending bill. This wasn't it.

    This bill also isn’t about indefinite detention. This year's bill did not contain the authorization for indefinite detention.

    That provision was in last year's NDAA bill.

    The bill this year contained the amendment I supported which sharply limited the detention power, and eliminated it entirely for American citizens in the US. While it is only a partial victory, it was a big victory. Particularly compared to what passed last year. Even so, I will continue to fight to protect anyone who could possibly be indefinitely detained.

    I would never vote for any bill, anywhere, that I believed enhanced the government's power to abridge your rights and detain people. This goes against every principle I hold dear and the Constitution I took an oath to uphold and protect.

    Government power and the many associated abuses have been piling up for years. We will not win all our liberties back at once. But we did win one battle this year, and we should be pleased that we did while also realizing the fight is really just getting started.

    I hope you will keep fighting alongside me.
    http://www.facebook.com/notes/rand-p...51450781088054



    [update] Justin Amash backs up Rand's explanation

    Senator Rand Paul is correct in his description of the 2013 NDAA. It's the 2012 NDAA (not 2013) that authorizes indefinite detention without charge or trial. There's much more to be done to protect our rights and undo the harm of the 2012 NDAA (which doesn't expire), but thanks to the efforts of United States Senator Mike Lee and Sen. Paul, we are making significant progress in (re-)advancing the principle that all people in the United States have a constitutionally protected right to full due process.
    http://www.facebook.com/repjustinama...86964508072697
    Last edited by jct74; 12-07-2012 at 04:27 PM.



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  3. #2
    Ya peeps need to calm down.

    Let Rand play is damn game of chess.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  4. #3
    Armchair quarterbacking Rand's game of chess doesn't help anybody, I don't even like defending him because it gives away his strategy but I feel like keeping his support base may end up being important.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  5. #4
    Seems very reasonable.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Armchair quarterbacking Rand's game of chess doesn't help anybody, I don't even like defending him because it gives away his strategy but I feel like keeping his support base may end up being important.
    In this case I don't think it even is a game of chess. From the explanation, it sounds like most of the bill was just procedural. That's why it passed 98-0.
    Libertarian Republican trying to help break the one-party state in Massachusetts

    Looking for new liberty candidates for 2014 and beyond

  7. #6
    I'm sorry. Voting for NDAA is a vote for tyranny no matter what spin is put on it.
    " We are taught to stay in line, not question, not think or create.
    We are coddled to support their agenda of an everyday worker bee.
    Education, for the sake of intellectual growth, is subverted. We are only
    judged on a national test built by the same corps. that control what we are
    taught in school. Any idea outside of their 'norm' is coddled to underachieve
    and desensitize themselves to fit into a box that humanity shouldn't fit into."

  8. #7
    Is this specific bill now law? I'm feeling like jumping off the Rand bandwagon right now and coming up shooting flaming arrows at it. If there is sanity in it please help me find it. I'd need some convincing stuff right now.
    I am the spoon.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by adisongrace View Post
    I'm sorry. Voting for NDAA is a vote for tyranny no matter what spin is put on it.
    Once again: the NDAA is not the same thing as indefinite detention. Indefinite detention was previously part of the NDAA, but because of the Feinstein-Lee Amendment, it no longer is. I know a lot of us have mentally associated the NDAA with indefinite detention, and for good reason, but that no longer applies.
    Libertarian Republican trying to help break the one-party state in Massachusetts

    Looking for new liberty candidates for 2014 and beyond



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by adisongrace View Post
    I'm sorry. Voting for NDAA is a vote for tyranny no matter what spin is put on it.
    He voted to take away the indefinite detention part of the bill. That is not a vote for tyranny.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by John F Kennedy III View Post
    Is this specific bill now law?
    No. It has to go to conference with the House and the differences need to be reconciled. Then I think the House and Senate will have final votes before it is sent to the President to be signed into law.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mz10 View Post
    Once again: the NDAA is not the same thing as indefinite detention. Indefinite detention was previously part of the NDAA, but because of the Feinstein-Lee Amendment, it no longer is. I know a lot of us have mentally associated the NDAA with indefinite detention, and for good reason, but that no longer applies.
    I can't support this bill regardless of that amendment. This bill lobbies for more defense contracts. I oppose the military industrial complex regardless of who is supporting it.
    " We are taught to stay in line, not question, not think or create.
    We are coddled to support their agenda of an everyday worker bee.
    Education, for the sake of intellectual growth, is subverted. We are only
    judged on a national test built by the same corps. that control what we are
    taught in school. Any idea outside of their 'norm' is coddled to underachieve
    and desensitize themselves to fit into a box that humanity shouldn't fit into."

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    He voted to take away the indefinite detention part of the bill. That is not a vote for tyranny.
    It is. Voting for military industrial contracts is propagating war.
    " We are taught to stay in line, not question, not think or create.
    We are coddled to support their agenda of an everyday worker bee.
    Education, for the sake of intellectual growth, is subverted. We are only
    judged on a national test built by the same corps. that control what we are
    taught in school. Any idea outside of their 'norm' is coddled to underachieve
    and desensitize themselves to fit into a box that humanity shouldn't fit into."

  15. #13
    dont underestimate what Boehner will do to the bill in conference... the one who purges conservatives will also purge amendments.

  16. #14
    Rand helped save me and many others from Gitmo. That's the takeaway value here whether peeps wanna accept it or not. Give this guy some damn credit!

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by adisongrace View Post
    I'm sorry. Voting for NDAA is a vote for tyranny no matter what spin is put on it.
    It's a spending bill.

    I mean, I agree in a theoretical sense but this NDAA is like the other NDAAs, not like the evil one last time around.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by FSP-Rebel View Post
    Rand helped save me and many others from Gitmo. That's the takeaway value here whether peeps wanna accept it or not. Give this guy some damn credit!
    Again how can we advocate war? It's completely hypocritical to everything freedom stands for.
    " We are taught to stay in line, not question, not think or create.
    We are coddled to support their agenda of an everyday worker bee.
    Education, for the sake of intellectual growth, is subverted. We are only
    judged on a national test built by the same corps. that control what we are
    taught in school. Any idea outside of their 'norm' is coddled to underachieve
    and desensitize themselves to fit into a box that humanity shouldn't fit into."



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by adisongrace View Post
    It is. Voting for military industrial contracts is propagating war.
    Alrighty then. So had Rand voted with this line of thinking, the bill would have passed and nothing would have changed. Well, nothing except that Rand would be completely alienated from EVERYONE who is not just like us.
    Last edited by KingNothing; 12-07-2012 at 03:08 PM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by adisongrace View Post
    It is. Voting for military industrial contracts is propagating war.
    As long as we have any military at the federal level at all, there will always be a defense authorization bill. There would have been with Ron too, you know.

    No one here is saying that a lot of the spending shouldn't have been slashed.
    Last edited by LibertyEagle; 12-07-2012 at 03:05 PM.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by adisongrace View Post
    Again how can we advocate war? It's completely hypocritical to everything freedom stands for.
    Who around here is advocating war?
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post
    No. It has to go to conference with the House and the differences need to be reconciled. Then I think the House and Senate will have final votes before it is sent to the President to be signed into law.
    Thank you.
    I am the spoon.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by adisongrace View Post
    Again how can we advocate war? It's completely hypocritical to everything freedom stands for.
    He voted for bill that contained an amendment (he supported) to undo most of the damage of last year's now-famous NDAA.

    Him voting against it would not only undermine his effort to take back our liberties stripped from the last NDAA, but would be painted as an unwillingness to participate in the process, which is fine if you're an educator and ideological leader like Ron was, but not if you want to be a political leader with influence. They're jsut waiting for a cahcne to paint Rand as a fake Republican, and he's just not going to do that if there's no payoff in doing so.

    You have to pick your battles, and he's won one for us by playing ball.
    I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than be living as a puppet or a slave - Peter Tosh

    The kids they dance and shake their bones,
    While the politicians are throwing stones,
    And it's all too clear we're on our own,
    Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down...

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    As long as we have any military at the federal level at all, there will always be a defense authorization bill. There would have been with Ron too, you know.

    No one here is saying that a lot of the spending shouldn't have been slashed.
    There has been an NDAA for the past 50 years.

  26. #23
    I'm going neutral on the liberty people in Congress. I can't invest emotion or support in them anymore.

    We will just have to wait and see what happens.
    I am the spoon.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Who around here is advocating war?
    I never stated that. You are misinterpreting what I stated.
    I stated that anyone who voted yea, is voting for more war and spending.
    Regardless of who it is I oppose expanding our military industrial complex.
    " We are taught to stay in line, not question, not think or create.
    We are coddled to support their agenda of an everyday worker bee.
    Education, for the sake of intellectual growth, is subverted. We are only
    judged on a national test built by the same corps. that control what we are
    taught in school. Any idea outside of their 'norm' is coddled to underachieve
    and desensitize themselves to fit into a box that humanity shouldn't fit into."



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    As long as we have any military at the federal level at all, there will always be a defense authorization bill. There would have been with Ron too, you know.

    No one here is saying that a lot of the spending shouldn't have been slashed.
    The spending has not been appropriated yet -- that is a separate bill. One Rand said he will propose amendments to cut spending out of. And one Rand said he will likely vote against for final passage.
    "A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government." - Thomas Jefferson's First Inaugural Address, 1801

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by adisongrace View Post
    I never stated that. You are misinterpreting what I stated.
    I stated that anyone who voted yea, is voting for more war and spending.
    Regardless of who it is I oppose expanding our military industrial complex.
    This is not the spending bill, which he said he likely won't vote for.
    I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than be living as a puppet or a slave - Peter Tosh

    The kids they dance and shake their bones,
    While the politicians are throwing stones,
    And it's all too clear we're on our own,
    Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down...

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinchWhoStoleDC View Post
    This is not the spending bill, which he said he likely won't vote for.
    Right but some can only see a yea vote on a military matter and can't see beyond that.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinchWhoStoleDC View Post
    This is not the spending bill, which he said he likely won't vote for.
    Time will tell. I will continue to not trust any politican, until they give me a reason to do so.
    " We are taught to stay in line, not question, not think or create.
    We are coddled to support their agenda of an everyday worker bee.
    Education, for the sake of intellectual growth, is subverted. We are only
    judged on a national test built by the same corps. that control what we are
    taught in school. Any idea outside of their 'norm' is coddled to underachieve
    and desensitize themselves to fit into a box that humanity shouldn't fit into."

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinchWhoStoleDC View Post
    This is not the spending bill, which he said he likely won't vote for.
    No, but it defends military contracting. Something I am against.
    " We are taught to stay in line, not question, not think or create.
    We are coddled to support their agenda of an everyday worker bee.
    Education, for the sake of intellectual growth, is subverted. We are only
    judged on a national test built by the same corps. that control what we are
    taught in school. Any idea outside of their 'norm' is coddled to underachieve
    and desensitize themselves to fit into a box that humanity shouldn't fit into."

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by FSP-Rebel View Post
    Right but some can only see a yea vote on a military matter and can't see beyond that.
    And others just one to get mad at Rand for everything he does or does not do.

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