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Thread: A plead to Danke and others in the know.

  1. #31

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    Not fiat.

    Fiat is by government decree.

    Local paper through voluntary means is simply currency - not fiat simply because it is paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by John F Kennedy III View Post
    +rep

    There's a town called Burkshire in western Massachusetts that uses their own currency. Burkshire Bucks. It's fiat, but at least it's local.
    "Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park



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  3. #32

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    This boils down to the difference between Irwin Schiff and his son Peter, the former who is imprisoned, the latter who was not caught in web of Legal Verbiage vs. The Reality of Common Misapprehension.

    Just as definitions change through common usage, and even common (mis)understanding, so does the force and effect of law--not though law or words, so much as common (mis)understanding of them, which are exploited and become the de facto laws--not in terms of verbiage or original legislative intent, but only in terms of the reality of social momentum that comes from majority misapprehension.

    If you said that something you're selling costs "five", and you meant five hundred, and yet the buyer misunderstands and doles out five thousand instead, and walks away, are you going to stop him, and correct his order of magnitude misunderstanding? An honest person might. Most won't, if they think they'll get away with it. Many would take that as a clear sign that whatever they were selling was underpriced to begin with (i.e., whatever they can get away with, or 'what the market will bear').

    If the government writes laws, statutes, rules or regulations code that apply only to a certain class of entities or individuals (e.g, those who take from government), but literally millions are led to believe that it applies to them as well, and "comply" with something that never applied to them in the first place, is the government going to correct their mistake--their misunderstanding? Or is the government instead going to take that as a sign that MOST people believed that it really did, and even should, apply to them? And if those "most people" include those who are collecting on the government's behalf, even to the point where there is no outcry or defense of a man who sees through the Common Misunderstanding Facade, and goes to prison as a result of his "non-compliance", and that reinforcing the common misapprehension, where does that leave you? Like him, you really can be right--and risk losing any combination of part or all of your life, liberty and property, like Irwin did. Or, you can do as Peter Shiff has chosen to do, and go along with the REALITY of the momentum effects of common misunderstandings, give payola to the thieving bandits who really will fuck you up if you don't go along with the charade, and avoid all trouble.

    Where are the alternate choices? Are there other choices, and is there an in between? I guess that is the question, but it deserves, at the very least, to be answered in a present reality context.

  4. #33

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    Ask your employer to be paid in gold/silver coins which are deemed legal tender in the us. Claim your salary was the amount of the coin's face value (e.g. $50 instead of $1700 for 1 oz).
    A guy named Robert Kahre from NV did this in 2003 and won in court against the IRS and the DOJ. (somebody please post a link, I can't do it from a mobile phone).
    Maybe that's a solution for you?

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by swissaustrian View Post
    Ask your employer to be paid in gold/silver coins which are deemed legal tender in the us. Claim your salary was the amount of the coin's face value (e.g. $50 instead of $1700 for 1 oz).
    A guy named Robert Kahre from NV did this in 2003 and won in court against the IRS and the DOJ. (somebody please post a link, I can't do it from a mobile phone).
    Maybe that's a solution for you?
    Did that guy win? I thought he lost.

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by swissaustrian View Post
    Ask your employer to be paid in gold/silver coins which are deemed legal tender in the us. Claim your salary was the amount of the coin's face value (e.g. $50 instead of $1700 for 1 oz).
    A guy named Robert Kahre from NV did this in 2003 and won in court against the IRS and the DOJ. (somebody please post a link, I can't do it from a mobile phone).
    Maybe that's a solution for you?
    Kahre was ultimately made an example of, after the manner of Irwin Schiff, when he was convicted by federal jurors and sentenced to fifteen years for federal tax crimes.

    Again, all you need for such a conviction--and therefore de facto change in the force and effect of law--is a jury of "peers" who misunderstand everything in pretty much the same way, and a judge who sees it pretty much the same way, and will not intervene.

    I mean, FFS--for those who insist that the so-called "rule of law" should semantically prevail, with insistence that the real meanings of words should trump everything, does it get any clearer than "No State shall... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts"? And does ANY STATE even regard that explicit provision of the Constitution? Even one? No. Not one.
    Last edited by Steven Douglas; 12-06-2012 at 07:19 PM.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by swissaustrian View Post
    Ask your employer to be paid in gold/silver coins which are deemed legal tender in the us. Claim your salary was the amount of the coin's face value (e.g. $50 instead of $1700 for 1 oz).
    A guy named Robert Kahre from NV did this in 2003 and won in court against the IRS and the DOJ. (somebody please post a link, I can't do it from a mobile phone).
    Maybe that's a solution for you?
    He lost.

    Robert D. Kahre and his sister, Lori A. Kahre, each were convicted of intentionally and knowingly conspiring to defraud the federal government, U.S. Attorney Greg Brower of Nevada said.

    Robert Kahre was also convicted of 49 counts of failure to collect or pay employment taxes, two counts of attempting to interfere with administration of IRS laws, four counts of tax evasion and one count of wire fraud.

    Lori Kahre was also convicted of two counts of attempting to interfere with administration of IRS laws, one count of making a false statement to a bank and seven counts of tax evasion.

    Robert Kahre faces up to 296 years in prison and fines of up to $14 million, Brower said. Lore Kahre faces up to 71 years in prison and fines of up to $2.75 million.

  8. #37
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    Robert Kahre faces up to 296 years in prison and fines of up to $14 million, Brower said. Lore Kahre faces up to 71 years in prison and fines of up to $2.75 million.
    Hold up a liquor store and shoot the clerk in the face while you are at it.

    It will get you, on average, an 8 year sentence, roughly.

    It's clear who the government thinks is a threat.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Life is good, even when it sucks. Never forget that. It is always better than surrender. Regardless of circumstance I maintain the samurai's attitude. I stand tall, unafraid, and keep my middle finger standing proudly in the faces of my unworthy adversaries. Fuck them all, every last one and to their last breaths.
    Huzzah!

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    There are many examples of social collapse following an economic collapse
    Yes, but your statement was that it was inevitable and I was simply pointing out that it is not. I was also trying to point out that economic collapse and social collapse are not nearly the same things, the latter being of necessity a whole lot more dire than the former.

    and I think it's foolish for anyone to dismiss it outright.
    We agree.
    --

    http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
    http://turnyourbackonthem.wordpress.com

    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

  11. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Yes, but your statement was that it was inevitable and I was simply pointing out that it is not. I was also trying to point out that economic collapse and social collapse are not nearly the same things, the latter being of necessity a whole lot more dire than the former.



    We agree.
    Okay, we'll have to disagree over my use of the word "inevitable". When you have, among other things, the DHS doing "Zombie" drills, and the Army recruiting internment/resettlement specialists, I think it's pretty obvious that the gov't expects social collapse. All I'm trying to get across is that people need to do what they can to prepare for it so that they don't have to suffer needlessly. No one can know for sure the degree of chaos that will ensue after a financial collapse. And, the level of preparedness is subjective. I guess I am probably a homesteader/prepper hybrid. Not a bad thing to be in these times.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by swissaustrian View Post
    Ask your employer to be paid in gold/silver coins which are deemed legal tender in the us. Claim your salary was the amount of the coin's face value (e.g. $50 instead of $1700 for 1 oz).
    A guy named Robert Kahre from NV did this in 2003 and won in court against the IRS and the DOJ. (somebody please post a link, I can't do it from a mobile phone).
    Maybe that's a solution for you?
    The guy would have to claim the profit he made when selling the coins.

  13. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNothing View Post
    The guy would have to claim the profit he made when selling the coins.
    And it's viewed by the government as a profit/gain to the "seller" of the coins, with no regard to the fact that there may be no profit once you price it in other tangible wealth that is clearly defined and has real value. The loss, not gain, is in value of the currency that the profits are reckoned in nominally, but it doesn't count that way, and all because Congress refuses to do its job and define a dollar.

    So in cases like this, a capital gains tax is more aptly a "currency debauchery loss avoidance" tax.

  14. #43

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    You have a real talent with words Steven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    ...
    So in cases like this, a capital gains tax is more aptly a "currency debauchery loss avoidance" tax.
    +1984
    Welcome to the Brave New World.
    • Negativity is ignorance, and ignorance is your own personal tyranny. It tells you how to act, how to talk, how to think, and what to feel. You will never see a world without tyrants until you release your own. ~Honored to be Among You

    How does Ron stay so calm?

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  15. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Vidual View Post
    You have a real talent with words Steven.



    +1984
    Welcome to the Brave New World.
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/411

    Federal reserve notes...shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the
    Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of
    Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.
    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/411

    Federal reserve notes...shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the
    Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of
    Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.
    You forgot this part:

    "Amendments

    1934—Act Jan. 30, 1934, struck out from last sentence provision permitting redemption in gold."
    --

    http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
    http://turnyourbackonthem.wordpress.com

    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

  17. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    You forgot this part:

    "Amendments

    1934—Act Jan. 30, 1934, struck out from last sentence provision permitting redemption in gold."
    No, I did not forget. It is still the law.
    Research lawful money.
    Last edited by Danke; 12-08-2012 at 04:08 AM.
    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  18. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/411

    Federal reserve notes...shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the
    Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of
    Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.
    They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand...
    • So I can show up at any Federal Reserve bank *demanding* Gold for USD, and they will not shoot me?


    • Negativity is ignorance, and ignorance is your own personal tyranny. It tells you how to act, how to talk, how to think, and what to feel. You will never see a world without tyrants until you release your own. ~Honored to be Among You

    How does Ron stay so calm?

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  19. #48

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    Get out of the USA. Make less then $X as stated by the IRS and you don't owe the IRS anything, but now you'll be paying tax to whatever socialist gov u move to.

  20. #49

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    The IRS advised me "if you are not a person required to file please write not liable on the form sign it and send it back". In researching frivolous returns I found that writing NOT LIABLE on the form is NOT a frivolous return.

    I have almost always "worked for myself" . However when I have not and written NOT LIABLE on the document I have gotten all my money back no questions asked.

  21. #50

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    Theres a guy in Belleville Ontario who converted his numismatic business into a chartered bank that converts precious metals into fiat money TAX FREE, because he was able to dig up the central banking loophole surrounding the fact that they are classified as "financial instruments". He was only able to successfully apply for chartered bank status doing this because a retiring tax agent gave him the info since she had nothing to lose at the time. Frontier Gold Exchange, one of a kind operation in North America. He also has an armoured guard company that has a lot of contracts with our federal government here in Canada.
    Last edited by Petar; 12-08-2012 at 06:42 AM.

  22. #51
    Member osan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    How about forming "Free City Projects" Take over cities. Let city go defunct. Form new entity pay little or no property taxes. Previous defunct city defaults on all obligations including pensions. New entity not liable for the incorporated cities debts or obligations. All these cities also decide to pay no state or fed income taxes.
    Yes, that was an idea I have considered. Apparently, and judging by the FSP results thus far, attempting to take over an entire state, even a hip-pocket sized one like NH is too ambitious. Try taking over a town and by way of ordnance remove unjust mechanisms.

    I had a related thought on this: If cops are generally allowed to rove hither thither with their firearms unmolested whereas "ordinary" people, the mundanes, are not then why not simply grant peace officer status to every resident of a town who requests it? They become paid ($1/annum salary) members of the force and hold all the same powers any other cop holds. This returns that equality of status that never should have gone so far out of balance in the first place. Here, "status" is the key term. The whole notion of elevating a cop to a higher status than anyone else is ridiculous on its face to anyone with eyes to see. Apparently, few have those eyes but this sort of maneuver alters perception drastically... at least I would hope that it would. One would have to be some special brand of stupid to remain blind to it under those circumstances.

    Methinks there could be a thread of its own there...
    --

    http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
    http://turnyourbackonthem.wordpress.com

    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Yes, that was an idea I have considered. Apparently, and judging by the FSP results thus far, attempting to take over an entire state, even a hip-pocket sized one like NH is too ambitious. Try taking over a town and by way of ordnance remove unjust mechanisms.

    I had a related thought on this: If cops are generally allowed to rove hither thither with their firearms unmolested whereas "ordinary" people, the mundanes, are not then why not simply grant peace officer status to every resident of a town who requests it? They become paid ($1/annum salary) members of the force and hold all the same powers any other cop holds. This returns that equality of status that never should have gone so far out of balance in the first place. Here, "status" is the key term. The whole notion of elevating a cop to a higher status than anyone else is ridiculous on its face to anyone with eyes to see. Apparently, few have those eyes but this sort of maneuver alters perception drastically... at least I would hope that it would. One would have to be some special brand of stupid to remain blind to it under those circumstances.

    Methinks there could be a thread of its own there...

    Interesting. A duly elected Sheriff in a small town of freedom lovers, where each person is automatically a deputy?
    “One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

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