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Thread: November Car Sales Could Hit Pace Not Seen Since 2008

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
    ...this is not just a single month thing - auto sales have been improving for quite some time.
    ....
    Kind of disappointed that a subforum on economics can miss a recovery in auto sales four years after it started. It says a lot about the news sources read by people who participate here. Open your eyes.
    Open your eyes to what? The new sub-prime lending malinvestment-future-expectation bubble brought on by re-channeling the loose credit spigots and essentially free money that was once available for housing--but is now aimed getting high credit-risks to buy automobiles instead?

    I know people who are having difficulty getting small loans and lines of credit for their businesses with what used to be excellent credit. They have to shop around quite a bit to finally find someone willing at a fairly ridiculous terms. My young nephew, on the other hand, who I know has extremely spotty credit, was delighted to learn that he could get excellent terms on the new Ford Escape Hybrid he drove off the lot in October. He makes next to nothing, barely $13 an hour, has a wife and new baby and couldn't really afford it -- but it was there, doncha know, all shiny and new, with accommodaters showing him where to do the easy signing and all, and the temptation to jump on it was just too great.

    Sound familiar?

    Credit-Fueled U.S. Car Sales May Need Help From Incomes [SOURCE]

    A rebound in U.S. auto sales has been buoyed by the return of easy lending, even to borrowers with flawed credit histories. Some economists question whether the gains can be sustained without a boost in hiring.

    Auto loans were up 5.5 percent in the second quarter from the same time last year, with riskier buyers accounting for 43.9 percent of the total, up from 42 percent in 2008, according to Experian Plc. (EXPN) By contrast, hourly wages for non-managers climbed 1.1 percent on average over the past 12 months, the least since records began in 1965, Labor Department figures show.

    The financing spigot opened as Federal Reserve efforts to keep interest rates low prompted investors to pour money into securities backed by subprime car loans in search of higher returns, giving the auto industry and the economic expansion a lift. That may no longer be enough to fuel purchases as wages are held back by a pool of 12.3 million unemployed Americans.

    “If you want to take it to another level of sales, you want to see more of the fundamental drivers of consumption improve more materially, things like income and employment,” said Jacob Oubina, senior U.S. economist at RBC Capital Markets LLC in New York, the bank with the third-best forecasts for consumer spending, according to Bloomberg calculations. “With credit flowing again to subprime, you’ve had the wherewithal to bridge that gap to execute on pent-up demand. That takes you only so far.”
    Kind of disappointed that an intelligent contrarian such as yourself in a subforum on "Sound Money" economics can miss the "more gas on the same kind of fire" genesis of this so-called "recovery" -- which I call, "more blood squeezed from a different part of the same turnip".

    What happens when average people like my nephew get hit by so many rising costs of everything-but-their-wages, and find themselves upside down" with their car 'mortgages'? And what about that car that depreciates substantially in value the moment it was driven off the lot? Who does a face-plant then? I foresee (and predict) a buying opportunity for a glut of really nice used cars in the not-too distant future. And what about the lending warehouses? Will the Fed have another special round of QE to buy up all that toxic debt as well?


    BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! This just in from credit.com:

    Why are car loans so easy to get?
    You will have trouble getting a mortgage or personal loan if you have bad credit. But can you get a car loan? You bet.


    If you've had trouble getting approved for a mortgage, a credit card or a personal loan recently because your credit isn't up to par, you aren't alone. We get readers writing to us often in our Credit.com Forum about their trouble getting access to credit. But one type of loan is open to nonprime consumers -- auto loans.

    The most recent Experian-Oliver Wyman Market Intelligence report found that even consumers with the worst Vantage scores -- F-level borrowers -- are getting access to auto loans with an average balance of $15,300. Auto loan originations have been on the rise for the past few years, according to the report.

    So what makes these financial products so readily available to consumers with credit scores that aren't among the elite? Alan Ikemura, senior product manager of Experian Decision Sciences, says auto loans have always been a credit product that is more open to subprime borrowers.

    "Auto originations have really been a different product than the real-estate type of product or even bank card products," Ikemura says. "It's not a new phenomenon that creditors are lending to lower tiers, except now you're starting to see more of that."

    The key to auto loans' wide availability is one simple reality of cars -- they can be repossessed.

    Read more here...
    Last edited by Steven Douglas; 12-03-2012 at 12:34 AM.


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  3. #102

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    This in three days ago from Asset-Backed:

    11/30/2012

    Nervousness Creeps Into Subprime Auto Sector [Source]
    Has the subprime auto-loan boom run its course?

    As the amount of financing extended to buyers with spotty credit histories has exploded in recent years, lenders in the sector have sought to sustain that growth by relaxing the minimum credit-quality standards for borrowers. The result has been a gradual weakening of loan performance that some now view as evidence of a coming down cycle.

    They envision a scenario in which losses among certain originators’ asset pools would exceed limits set by warehouse lenders, causing them to lose access to some or all of that financing. Without the ability to accumulate loans, those shops also would find themselves locked out of the asset-backed bond market — putting them at risk of failure. “I can’t dispute the fact there will be a casualty or two,” one issuer said. “There are a lot of lenders, even big ones, that are growing like crazy putting a lot of garbage on the books.”

    Few dispute the idea that losses will continue to rise. The question is when, or if, loan performance will weaken to a point that warehouse lenders find intolerable.

    For many subprime auto lenders, access to warehouse financing automatically begins to shut down when losses reach 8-10%. According to an index maintained by Fitch, average annual losses among securitized pools of subprime car loans have climbed for five straight months, from an average of 3.76% in May to 6.44% in October — a trajectory that worries many industry professionals.

    Declining credit quality for 2011-2012 vintage loans is the clear culprit. After losses maxed out around 8-9% during the financial crisis, lenders adopted ultra-conservative underwriting standards that resulted in stellar performance for loans printed in 2009-2010. From there, average FICO scores gradually dropped as larger lenders sought to increase their origination volume and newly established shops faced pressure from private equity backers to grow at a rapid clip.

    Take Capital One, which lowered its minimum FICO score to 520 from 540 this year. Ally Bank has made a similar adjustment, while Banco Santander and General Motors Financial have moved slightly down the credit scale.
    CapOne minimum FICO scores from 540 down to 520...can you say Scraping the Bottom of the Barrel?

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    That's a loaded chart. Economic indicators are a very broad beast with lots of relevant outliers. Including the one that I mentioned. But I'm tired now and am going to bed. Shall return to bury your argument tomorrow. I'll start with '05. Will leave you with this in the mean time. http://www.cbs47.tv/business/story/T...84ZrjXbJg.cspx
    That article has nothing to do with car sales in the United States. Rather, Toyota's quarterly rise in profits is due to the Japanese tsunami, which knocked out some of its Japanese production. I'm waiting to hear how this is a "loaded chart" when all it shows is continued strength in new car sales.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    Open your eyes to what? The new sub-prime lending malinvestment-future-expectation bubble brought on by re-channeling the loose credit spigots and essentially free money that was once available for housing--but is now aimed getting high credit-risks to buy automobiles instead?

    I know people who are having difficulty getting small loans and lines of credit for their businesses with what used to be excellent credit. They have to shop around quite a bit to finally find someone willing at a fairly ridiculous terms. My young nephew, on the other hand, who I know has extremely spotty credit, was delighted to learn that he could get excellent terms on the new Ford Escape Hybrid he drove off the lot in October. He makes next to nothing, barely $13 an hour, has a wife and new baby and couldn't really afford it -- but it was there, doncha know, all shiny and new, with accommodaters showing him where to do the easy signing and all, and the temptation to jump on it was just too great.

    Sound familiar?



    Kind of disappointed that an intelligent contrarian such as yourself in a subforum on "Sound Money" economics can miss the "more gas on the same kind of fire" genesis of this so-called "recovery" -- which I call, "more blood squeezed from a different part of the same turnip".

    What happens when average people like my nephew get hit by so many rising costs of everything-but-their-wages, and find themselves upside down" with their car 'mortgages'? And what about that car that depreciates substantially in value the moment it was driven off the lot? Who does a face-plant then? I foresee (and predict) a buying opportunity for a glut of really nice used cars in the not-too distant future. And what about the lending warehouses? Will the Fed have another special round of QE to buy up all that toxic debt as well?


    BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! This just in from credit.com:
    More anecdotes from Steven Douglas. Your anecdotes are great, I must say. I really liked your last anecdote about how the banks want people to stop paying their mortgages so they can foreclose.

    There are a few reasons that virtually anyone can qualify for car purchases:

    1. Cars aren't depreciating as fast as they used to.
    2. The used car market is strong, meaning that if there are defaults those cars can be quickly recovered and sold.
    3. MPG improvements significantly reduce the long-run cost of owning a current model car.

    At any rate, you've given me an anecdote that suggests subprime borrowers are pushing car sales up. No hard data, though. Got any sources on what percentage of car sales are subprime and how that differs from 1, 2, 5, years ago? No? Of course not! Because the credit quality of borrowers has not changed significantly, and companies like Credit Acceptance Corp have been making subprime loans for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    This in three days ago from Asset-Backed:

    CapOne minimum FICO scores from 540 down to 520...can you say Scraping the Bottom of the Barrel?
    See above. You're trying too hard to ignore reality: car sales are up and your pessimistic self just can't handle it.

  6. #105

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    To whom are all these cars being sold?

    If the majority are fleet sales to various governmental agencies then it's a crock...

    My seat of the pants/drive down the road analogy doesn't see new cars flying off the lots...

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by John F Kennedy III View Post
    Don't you just love our trolls? Why does anyone reply to our trolls at all?

    He should be permabanned for saying that. Period. If not, this forum should be unmoderated.
    Honestly, in my own unbiased opinion I am wonder why nothing has happened to either of them. She started it and he took it too far.

  8. #107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    To whom are all these cars being sold?

    If the majority are fleet sales to various governmental agencies then it's a crock...

    My seat of the pants/drive down the road analogy doesn't see new cars flying off the lots...
    I've no reason to question the validity of the numbers-sold statistics. Given that we're STILL not back to pre-recession numbers I don't think we've any reason to celebrate them, though. With that said, it is nice to see the gradual improvement.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
    There are a few reasons that virtually anyone can qualify for car purchases:

    1. Cars aren't depreciating as fast as they used to.
    2. The used car market is strong, meaning that if there are defaults those cars can be quickly recovered and sold.
    3. MPG improvements significantly reduce the long-run cost of owning a current model car.
    EXCELLENT points, and I think you should also add that interest rates are lower now than they've been at any point in recent history which also decreases the overall cost of ownership to anyone who requires financing.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
    That article has nothing to do with car sales in the United States. Rather, Toyota's quarterly rise in profits is due to the Japanese tsunami, which knocked out some of its Japanese production. I'm waiting to hear how this is a "loaded chart" when all it shows is continued strength in new car sales.
    What I mean by a loaded chart is not the rise in sales but the fact that there are outlying circumstances as to why. Some of which have been mentioned here. It's loaded in the fact that too often these realities are ignored in lieu of reframing a notion. And I know what the article contains. I put it there. Sharp rises in recent care sales have a lot to do with insurance checks beingcut for the same disasters here. Many of which have spanned over the last several years.

    You can't just put up a chart and reframe a notion. That's transparent.

    Anyhoo. Steven already fudged up a portion of my argument regarding the matter outside of the recent weather phenomenon so...that's about as far as I care about it.

    But you can't reframe statistics. Statistics aren't the issue. The fact that car sales are rising is one that comes with a reason why. Not so much a feel good and warm fuzzy notion that folks just want to go out and buy a car. Come on, man.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 12-03-2012 at 11:42 AM.
    It's not like I'm just trying to win and get elected. I'm trying to change the course of history. - Ron Paul

  11. #110

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    This seems relevant:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/defau...0Inventory.jpg


    Zerohedge gives us this chart which shows end-of-month inventory at GM dealerships to be WAY up.

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