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Thread: Wealth distribution or ("trickle down economics")

  1. #1
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    Default Wealth distribution or ("trickle down economics")

    Why is america's wealthy owning most of the wealth? Moreover, why are people so pissed off?

    How do i counter the argument that the rich should pay m ore taxes because the top 10 percent own 80 percent of the wealth. This distribution argument is killing me.



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  3. #2

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    this should probably be moved to the economics sub-forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VBRonPaulFan View Post
    this should probably be moved to the economics sub-forum.
    how do i move it.

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    Maybe , there should be no tax at all , and the Fed Govt could fund Article One , Section Eight in a different manner, and you could flush the rest.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Maybe , there should be no tax at all , and the Fed Govt could fund Article One , Section Eight in a different manner, and you could flush the rest.
    I like this idea. Amazing, isn't it, what can be found in the Constitution!

  7. #6

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    It's so easy to counter...just explain to them the dollar voting concept. If you understand this concept then it should be obvious why the 99% vs the 1% is an absurd concept. It's the 99% who "elects" who the 1% should be...so if the 99% has any complaints they should blame themselves!

    I'm a millionaire, I'm a multi-millionaire. I'm filthy rich. You know why I'm a multi-millionaire? 'Cause multi-millions like what I do. That's pretty good, isn't it? - Michael Moore
    Wal-Mart can’t charge more; if it does, its customers will go elsewhere. The same is true of Target and Costco. In a sense, Wal-Mart is the elected representative of tens of millions of hard-bargaining shoppers, and, like any representative, it serves only at their pleasure. - James Surowiecki, The Customer is King
    You might say, “That’s okay, Williams, if you have enough dollar votes. But what about poor people?” Poor people are far better served in the market arena than the political arena. Check this out. If you visit a poor neighborhood, you will see some nice clothing, some nice cars, some nice food, and maybe even some nice homes—no nice schools. Why not at least some nice schools? The explanation is simple. Clothing, cars, food, and houses are allocated through the market mechanism. Schools are allocated through the political mechanism. By the way, if you are a member of a minority, it is in your interest to minimize those decisions over your life made in the political arena, where the majority rules. - Walter Williams, Where Does Your Vote Really Count?
    In other words, people will start buying something in large numbers if it solves a big problem for them. But most first-world problems—needing an easier way to record your favorite TV programs or keep track of what’s in your fridge—just aren’t that pressing. In developing countries, on the other hand, technology can transform lives. - Christopher Mims, How a $20 tablet from India could blindside PC makers, educate billions and transform computing as we know it
    Here's a passage from what I consider to be the best technical explanation of how markets redistribute resources...

    These economic facts have certain social consequences. As the critics of the market economy nowadays prefer to take their stand on “social” grounds, it may be not inappropriate here to elucidate the true social results of the market process. We have already spoken of it as a leveling process. More aptly, we may now describe these results as an instance of what Pareto called “the circulation of elites.” Wealth is unlikely to stay for long in the same hands. It passes from hand to hand as unforeseen change confers value, now on this, now on that specific resource, engendering capital gains and losses. The owners of wealth, we might say with Schumpeter, are like the guests at a hotel or the passengers in a train: They are always there but are never for long the same people. - Lachmann, The Market Economy and the Distribution of Wealth
    Last edited by Xerographica; 11-25-2012 at 09:29 PM.

  8. #7

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    http://townhall.com/columnists/thoma...redistribution

    The Fallacy Of Redistribution

    n theory, confiscating the wealth of the more successful people ought to make the rest of the society more prosperous. But when the Soviet Union confiscated the wealth of successful farmers, food became scarce. As many people died of starvation under Stalin in the 1930s as died in Hitler's Holocaust in the 1940s.How can that be?

    It is not complicated. You can only confiscate the wealth that exists at a given moment. You cannot confiscate future wealth -- and that future wealth is less likely to be produced when people see that it is going to be confiscated. Farmers in the Soviet Union cut back on how much time and effort they invested in growing their crops, when they realized that the government was going to take a big part of the harvest. They slaughtered and ate young farm animals that they would normally keep tending and feeding while raising them to maturity.

    People in industry are not inert objects either. Moreover, unlike farmers, industrialists are not tied to the land in a particular country.

    Russian aviation pioneer Igor Sikorsky could take his expertise to America and produce his planes and helicopters thousands of miles away from his native land. Financiers are even less tied down, especially today, when vast sums of money can be dispatched electronically to any part of the world.

    If confiscatory policies can produce counterproductive repercussions in a dictatorship, they are even harder to carry out in a democracy. A dictatorship can suddenly swoop down and grab whatever it wants. But a democracy must first have public discussions and debates. Those who are targeted for confiscation can see the handwriting on the wall, and act accordingly.
    Last edited by angelatc; 11-25-2012 at 09:47 PM.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

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    http://www.american.com/archive/2007...ome-inequality

    Making Sense Of Income Inequality (and why it doesn't matter)
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  10. #9

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    Why is america's wealthy owning most of the wealth? Moreover, why are people so pissed off?

    How do i counter the argument that the rich should pay m ore taxes because the top 10 percent own 80 percent of the wealth. This distribution argument is killing me.
    The wealthy own most of the wealth because with money you get power and influence and ownership over the means of production. Once you have those things, you get more money. It has a snowball effect. There is no theoretical limit to the snowball, so it's possible that 1% or less could own just about 100% of the wealth and the rest could live as slaves.

    Why are people pissed off? It's pretty obvious, isn't it??

    So why not have government redistribute wealth from those who have more than their fair share to those who have little? Seems to make sense.

    The major problem with that idea to me is that I have to ask, are we talking about the real world here or some imaginary place? In the real world, the government is redistributing wealth alright -- to the wealthy! It's not getting back to the average person, it's going to the Haliburtons, Goldman Sacs, and Monsantos of the world. You don't want the government redistributing wealth in this way. In fact it's gotten so bad that we might be better off if the government just stopped. Stopped doing anything. Just stop.

    In an ideal world, sure, it's not such a bad idea if the government used it's influence to give us healthcare that the rich pay for, for example. However, we need to be careful, because this does amount to stealing, and even if it's for a good cause stealing seems wrong. Maybe there's some truth to the idea that the market will correct imbalances and people will get their fair shares again. I'm not sure. But either way this is ideal world imaginary talking.

    In the real world, we've got to call the government out on their making the rich richer and have them stop that crap. We should either support the social safety net, or go after it last if you're really in a cutting mood. Don't go after it first. We need to get out in the street and smash the corporate globalist oligarchy that is destroying our country and world.

    Once we've done these things, we can have the imaginary world bullcrap conversation / argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CUnknown View Post
    The wealthy own most of the wealth because with money you get power and influence and ownership over the means of production. Once you have those things, you get more money. It has a snowball effect. There is no theoretical limit to the snowball, so it's possible that 1% or less could own just about 100% of the wealth and the rest could live as slaves.

    Why are people pissed off? It's pretty obvious, isn't it??

    So why not have government redistribute wealth from those who have more than their fair share to those who have little? Seems to make sense.

    The major problem with that idea to me is that I have to ask, are we talking about the real world here or some imaginary place? In the real world, the government is redistributing wealth alright -- to the wealthy! It's not getting back to the average person, it's going to the Haliburtons, Goldman Sacs, and Monsantos of the world. You don't want the government redistributing wealth in this way. In fact it's gotten so bad that we might be better off if the government just stopped. Stopped doing anything. Just stop.

    In an ideal world, sure, it's not such a bad idea if the government used it's influence to give us healthcare that the rich pay for, for example. However, we need to be careful, because this does amount to stealing, and even if it's for a good cause stealing seems wrong. Maybe there's some truth to the idea that the market will correct imbalances and people will get their fair shares again. I'm not sure. But either way this is ideal world imaginary talking.

    In the real world, we've got to call the government out on their making the rich richer and have them stop that crap. We should either support the social safety net, or go after it last if you're really in a cutting mood. Don't go after it first. We need to get out in the street and smash the corporate globalist oligarchy that is destroying our country and world.

    Once we've done these things, we can have the imaginary world bullcrap conversation / argument.
    Oh yes , I want them to stop.

  12. #11

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    america's wealthy own most of the wealth because of the federal reserve being created and introducing the 'inflation tax', which causes 'trickle up economics'. this is where the wealth is slowly and steadily forcibly taken from the lower/middle class and centralized to the wealthiest - who gain access to the government printed money the earliest which they use to make moves in the market. the rampant collusion of business with government and the socialization of business losses on the taxpayers sure as shit hasn't helped, either.

    in a truly free market with sound money and government not interfering in markets, you'd see a much broader spread of wealth. this is what created the large middle class in america - the decline wasn't because of capitalism or lack of regulation.

    the people advocating additional taxes on the wealth are completely ignorant of the fact that the wealthy will gladly pay the tax, and get it right back just like they've always done. it would be a very short term, short sighted attempt at fixing a problem which doesn't exist, while ignoring the fundamental corruption of our system. end the fed and restore sound money, and the wealthy who steal the wealth with their politician buddies will no longer have a vehicle with which to do it.
    Last edited by VBRonPaulFan; 11-26-2012 at 01:51 PM.

  13. #12

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    According to the IRS here are the average taxes paid (2010)

    <10k .4%
    10-20k .9%
    20-30k 2.5%
    30-50k 4.8%
    50-100k 7.7%
    100-200k 12%
    200-500k 19.6%
    500k-1m 24.1%
    1-1.5m 24.9%
    1.5-2m 25.1%
    2-5m 24.9%
    5-10m 24.2%
    >10m 20.1%

    So where does your friend propose to raise the tax rates? On the over 10m? That is only 11,000 returns. I am not sure it will make a big difference. Does your friend think anyone paying more than 25% is fair? I certainly DO NOT!

    http://www.irs.gov/PUP/taxstats/prod...lbulincome.pdf (see page 10-11)
    Last edited by TonySutton; 11-26-2012 at 10:18 AM.
    Insanity should be defined as trusting the government to solve a problem they caused in the first place. Please do not go insane!

  14. #13

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    Envy, traditionally considered a vice, is a poor philosophical basis for economic policy. A better approach is to study which economic policy results in the greatest improvement in the wealth of the public overall. If the "poor" get richer in a true market economy (as all the evidence demonstrates) what difference does it make if the "rich" get richer faster? As long as the general prosperity is increasing, only envy cares if the increase is uniform.
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    I have a really crazy idea: Labor Unions

    I think the government raising taxes is more likely to grow government and maybe incidentally create jobs at best. Instead if a company rises to be super rich on top of a poor workforce, then there will come a natural breaking point where the workforce rebels. They can organize and demand better conditions and compensation. I think it's probably the best check against greedy businesses that make their employees work for long hours or low pay.

    I know Unions aren't popular with some people, but I'd rather go that route then use a flawed government redistribution.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonySutton View Post
    According to the IRS here are the average taxes paid (2010)

    <10k .4%
    10-20k .9%
    20-30k 2.5%
    30-50k 4.8%
    50-100k 7.7%
    100-200k 12%
    200-500k 19.6%
    500k-1m 24.1%
    1-1.5m 24.9%
    1.5-2m 25.1%
    2-5m 24.9%
    5-10m 24.2%
    >10m 20.1%

    So where does your friend propose to raise the tax rates? On the over 10m? That is only 11,000 returns. I am not sure it will make a big difference. Does your friend think anyone paying more than 25% is fair? I certainly DO NOT!

    http://www.irs.gov/PUP/taxstats/prod...lbulincome.pdf (see page 10-11)
    Factor in the inflation tax and this number flips dramatically. Still, I agree that trying to make things "fair" by playing games with the taxation end of things is nonsense. Free up the market and allow effort and ingenuity figure out the distribution.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

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  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by pochy1776 View Post
    Why is america's wealthy owning most of the wealth? Moreover, why are people so pissed off?

    How do i counter the argument that the rich should pay m ore taxes because the top 10 percent own 80 percent of the wealth. This distribution argument is killing me.
    North Korea has the perfect model for wealth redistribution you ever want to examine. 100% of the wealth of individuals have been so redistributed away that everyone is equal--equally starving and destitute that is except for those elite in the communist party. On the other hand, look at the US where we have somewhat of a free market (a tiny free market ) with a large percent of the population owning most the nations assets. In this case even our poor are well off. The poor have a much higher standard of living than in North Korea where you find millions have died from starvation. Even communist China realized 30 years ago that to have any chance of their nation being successful they have to adopt a form of private ownership and that having wealthy is necessary.

    The reason you are seeing more wealth disparity in this nation is precisely because of wealth redistribution programs that steal people's wealth during their accumulation years.
    Last edited by lx43; 11-26-2012 at 06:21 PM.
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