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Thread: Which has priority... Property Rights, or the Bill of Rights/Civil Liberties?

  1. #1

    Which has priority... Property Rights, or the Bill of Rights/Civil Liberties?

    Ok, I have a fundamental question... which is more important: Property Rights or the Bill of Rights and Civil Liberties?

    I am having a big debate with a friend over the idea of Businesses being able to suspend the 2nd Amendment for employees. My argument is that if a landowner can suspend one part of the Bill of Rights, what is to stop them from throwing the whole thing out and strip searching employees.

    Before I get the knee jerk reaction of "well they can just quit and work someplace else", I would like to give the following example:
    What if a very very rich man bought ALL of the land? Does that mean no more Civil Liberties for anyone? This may seem unrealistic, but given that the government has set the precedent for seizing property under eminent Domain, does it not stand to reason that the Gov could seize all land, and suspend the Bill of rights under the guise of "Property Rights"?

    I gave the following example:
    "Property Rights were very strongly enforced during feudalism. The King owned ALL the land, rented it to Vassals( knights) in exchange for military service and serfs/peasants could either work the fields or starve. The King/ Lord even owned the deer in the woods, and starving peasants would be punished severely for killing a deer. I am advocating a Constitutional approach that guarantees BASIC human rights (like the Bill of Rights) over the rights of a landowner."

    Dont get me wrong, I am a huge advocate of private property. But where do we draw the line? Is my fear of feudalism irrational?

    I know there are many people who understand property rights, economics, and civil liberties etc much better than I do on here, so I am interested in any insights you might have on this topic.



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  3. #2
    The current understanding of property rights in the world is so grossly distorted as to require the Bill of Rights to triumph in your scenario.

    Feudalism shouldn't even be possible if property rights are solely delegated to the land which an individual has mixed his labor with, or contractually obtained from another individual, and then proceeded to mix his labor with. The bottom line is property rights need to be strong to the point they are considered inviolable, but the understanding and interpretation has to correct so as to not arbitrarily limit other individuals that could make use of resources.

    The permanent ownership type of nonsense that a monarch, or rich people get away with nowadays needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history.

  4. #3
    Well, if you want the Second Amendment incorporated to private property, why not the First? I'm sure a lot of folks here would love to tell their boss to go to hell or just plain cuss them out without any fear of being fired.

    Seriously, though, I get where you're coming from and empathize with your line of reason. That said, I'm of the opinion that property rights are the genesis of all rights. By that, I mean that without property rights, there are no "civil rights." The Bill of Rights was amended to offer guarantees of restraint against the government and shouldn't be perverted to restrain citizens rather than or in addition to.
    ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!
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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Qdog View Post
    I am having a big debate with a friend over the idea of Businesses being able to suspend the 2nd Amendment for employees.
    This makes no sense...do you have examples?

  6. #5

  7. #6
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    This makes no sense...do you have examples?
    I assume they meant private businesses establishments who do not allow employees to carry or bring guns onto the premises?

  9. #8



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  11. #9
    Property Rights.
    "We do have some differences and our approaches will be different, but that makes him his own person. I mean why should he [Rand] be a clone and do everything and think just exactly as I have. I think it's an opportunity to be independent minded. We are about 99% [the same on issues]." Ron Paul

  12. #10
    All rights are (stem from) property rights.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Qdog View Post
    Ok, I have a fundamental question... which is more important: Property Rights or the Bill of Rights and Civil Liberties?

    I am having a big debate with a friend over the idea of Businesses being able to suspend the 2nd Amendment for employees. My argument is that if a landowner can suspend one part of the Bill of Rights, what is to stop them from throwing the whole thing out and strip searching employees.
    It's a matter of citizenship. Personhood. You're too far ahead of yourself in the discussion itself. That's not even the correct question. "We the people" isn't how it was when the founders left it. Nobody ever addresses the question of citizenship. Ever.

    How does a corporation come about having the gift of constitution to be able to express this speech anyhow? Do tell.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 12-22-2012 at 02:35 AM.



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