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Thread: Russia’s Pravda Declares “Communism Won in American with Obama."

  1. #1

    Exclamation Russia’s Pravda Declares “Communism Won in American with Obama."

    Russia Pravda Says "Communism Won in American with Obama; US Suffering Has Only Begun" http://buff.ly/WRhFu1

    In an extraordinary column last week, Russia's de facto government press arm declared that the era of "Miss American Pie" was over in the U.S. Citing Obama's reelection, Pravda stated that the "Communists have won in America…"

    Why? Because the US is “an illiterate society” that continues to buy off on Obama’s “lies of less taxes while he raises them.” The US educational system is also held responsible, with Pravda stating that it was “conquered by the Communists long ago and history was revised thus paving the way for their Communist presidents.”

    As you might have gathered, Pravda’s hit on Obama as a communist isn’t a glancing blow. It seems to be the overriding theme of the article:

    He is a Communist without question promoting the Communist Manifesto without calling it so. How shrewd he is in America. His cult of personality mesmerizes those who cannot go beyond their ignorance. They will continue to follow him like those fools who still praise Lenin and Stalin in Russia. Obama’s fools and Stalin’s fools share the same drink of illusion.

    And if anyone would know a communist, Russia would. Full article HERE.



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  3. #2
    Sorry, but I am not seeing communism here. Crony-capitalism? Yup. Fabian socialism? Yup. Fascism? Yup. Communism? Not seeing it. Marxism? Not seeing it.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Sorry, but I am not seeing communism here. Crony-capitalism? Yup. Fabian socialism? Yup. Fascism? Yup. Communism? Not seeing it. Marxism? Not seeing it.
    In all honesty, big government is still big government. All of these terms just serve to muddy up the fact that Obama is a business as usual pro-government blowhard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sister Miriam Godwinson View Post
    We Must Dissent.

  5. #4
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    Communism in it's real politik form, as opposed to a selfless devotion you would see in a monastery, is pretty close to what Obama practices, but he is far more genteel, which is closer to the stealthy Fabian Socialist model.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Spikender View Post
    In all honesty, big government is still big government. All of these terms just serve to muddy up the fact that Obama is a business as usual pro-government blowhard.
    I agree that totalitarian dictatorships all look pretty much alike in the end. But I was getting a little irked at all the "Obama is a Marxist!!!!" propaganda I was seeing before the election. A Marxist or communist believes in ABOLISHING private property. If anyone can show me any act by Obama that abolished private property, please do so. If you can't, then he is not imposing a communist economic system.

    Was Dubya a communist? Was Romney a communist? As far as I can tell, all three had identical economic models and none of them were communist.

    Sorry if I am nit picking, but when people (like the loser Allen West) go around calling other people communist, my "manipulation" sensor starts going off. It is actually kind of important to be clear about economic theories.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  7. #6
    You know it's bad when former communists are telling you that you're doing it wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    I agree that totalitarian dictatorships all look pretty much alike in the end. But I was getting a little irked at all the "Obama is a Marxist!!!!" propaganda I was seeing before the election. A Marxist or communist believes in ABOLISHING private property. If anyone can show me any act by Obama that abolished private property, please do so. If you can't, then he is not imposing a communist economic system.

    Was Dubya a communist? Was Romney a communist? As far as I can tell, all three had identical economic models and none of them were communist.

    Sorry if I am nit picking, but when people (like the loser Allen West) go around calling other people communist, my "manipulation" sensor starts going off. It is actually kind of important to be clear about economic theories.
    Oh yes, believe me, I agree with you on that point. Words like "Communist" and "Marxist" are just used to manipulate people, since those words have a whole world of hurt associated with them. In the end, all of these systems end badly for the people, but I suppose it's important to be a lot more clear on what exactly one's beliefs are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sister Miriam Godwinson View Post
    We Must Dissent.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Sorry, but I am not seeing communism here. Crony-capitalism? Yup. Fabian socialism? Yup. Fascism? Yup. Communism? Not seeing it. Marxism? Not seeing it.
    Well, if you look up the 10 planks of communism, we're there.

    BTW, did anyone catch what Jamie Foxx said on some award show on BET this weekend? "First of all give an honor to God, and our Lord and Savior Barack Obama!" And the crowd went wild.... http://nation.foxnews.com/jamie-foxx...god-bet-awards

    We're screwed.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!



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  11. #9
    All this says to me is that capitalists typically try to cloak their behavior in radicalism, even though they actually follow a pretty cut-and-dry capitalist/state-capitalist/crony-capitalist (whatever you want to call it) course of action. The USSR was never purely Marxist - it was an attempt at establishing a workers' state, but the bureaucracy inevitably took over... or perhaps it could even be that the "bureaucratic takeover" was engineered from the start, depending on how pessimistic you want to be. In practice, the Soviet Union wound up being just like every other state capitalist society. This is why all the hysteria about either the USSR or Obama being a Marxist is quite frankly laughable to me.

    The stated end goals of Marxism would represent a real threat to the balance of power that Obama and other statists crave. It is simply much more efficient to allow public attention to be diverted to a boogeyman ideology or group of people, while stealthily carrying out the status quo agenda. I really don't think Obama cares if people call him Marxist.

    Acala honestly hit it right on the head (as usual).

    As for the ten planks... we're honestly not there. I bolded the ones that are ... questionable, to say the least. Note that some of these are also necessary in order to promote state capitalism... which just shows that statism overlaps no matter what.
    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
    Last edited by Rothbardian Girl; 11-26-2012 at 10:27 AM.
    Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson

  12. #10
    http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/tenplanks.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

    Although Marx advocated the use of any means, especially including violent revolution, to bring about socialist dictatorship, he suggested ten political goals for developed countries such as the United States. How far has the United States -- traditionally the bastion of freedom, free markets, and private property -- gone down the Marxist road to fulfill these socialist aims? You be the judge. The following are Marx's ten planks from his Communist Manifesto.


    1. Abolition of private property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose.

    The courts have interpreted the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868) to give the government far more "eminent domain" power than was originally intended, Under the rubric of "eminent domain" and various zoning regulations, land use regulations by the Bureau of Land Managementproperty taxes, and "environmental" excuses, private property rights have become very diluted and private property in landis, vehicles, and other forms are seized almost every day in this country under the "forfeiture" provisions of the RICO statutes and the so-called War on Drugs..



    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

    The 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913 (which some scholars maintain was never properly ratified), and various State income taxes, established this major Marxist coup in the United States many decades ago. These taxes continue to drain the lifeblood out of the American economy and greatly reduce the accumulation of desperately needed capital for future growth, business starts, job creation, and salary increases.



    3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

    Another Marxian attack on private property rights is in the form of Federal & State estate taxes and other inheritance taxes, which have abolished or at least greatly diluted the right of private property owners to determine the disposition and distribution of their estates upon their death. Instead, government bureaucrats get their greedy hands involved .



    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

    We call it government seizures, tax liens, "forfeiture" Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process.



    5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

    The Federal Reserve System, created by the Federal Reserve Act of Congress in 1913, is indeed such a "national bank" and it politically manipulates interest rates and holds a monopoly on legal counterfeiting in the United States. This is exactly what Marx had in mind and completely fulfills this plank, another major socialist objective. Yet, most Americans naively believe the U.S. of A. is far from a Marxist or socialist nation.



    6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the state.

    In the U.S., communication and transportation are controlled and regulated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) established by the Communications Act of 1934 and the Department of Transportation and the Interstate Commerce Commission (established by Congress in 1887), and the Federal Aviation Administration as well as Executive orders 11490, 10999 -- not to mention various state bureaucracies and regulations. There is also the federal postal monopoly, AMTRAK and CONRAIL -- outright socialist (government-owned) enterprises. Instead of free-market private enteprrise in these important industries, these fields in America are semi-cartelized through the government's regulatory-industiral complex.



    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

    While the U.S. does not have vast "collective farms" (which failed so miserably in the Soviet Union), we nevertheless do have a significant degree of government involvement in agriculture in the form of price support subsidies and acreage alotments and land-use controls. The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture. As well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Evironmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.



    8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

    We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000. And I almost forgot...The Equal Rights Amendment means that women should do all work that men do including the military and since passage it would make women subject to the draft.



    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

    We call it the Planning Reorganization Act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136.



    10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.

    People are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, which train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education".
    Last edited by Deborah K; 11-26-2012 at 10:25 AM.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Well, if you look up the 10 planks of communism, we're there.

    BTW, did anyone catch what Jamie Foxx said on some award show on BET this weekend? "First of all give an honor to God, and our Lord and Savior Barack Obama!" And the crowd went wild.... http://nation.foxnews.com/jamie-foxx...god-bet-awards

    We're screwed.

    Our new Lord and Savior can do no wrong, either:



    I know there are WAC haters on this forum, but ya gotta give credit where credit is due, and Luke exposes the idiocy of blind followers in this clip.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  14. #12
    Regulations =/= state control or takeover. Regulations are designed to give certain private interests an advantage over others. The government also has not successfully taken over all education, either - otherwise homeschooling and private schooling would be outlawed on a federal level. Your link also admits that we do not have communal farms in the US, which is actually a really important plank of the Marxist platform. Central banks have been around for a long time, before Marxism was even in its infancy. Therefore, I would suggest that they are not really a characteristic of Marxism itself, but statism in general.
    Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothbardian Girl View Post
    All this says to me is that capitalists typically try to cloak their behavior in radicalism, even though they actually follow a pretty cut-and-dry capitalist/state-capitalist/crony-capitalist (whatever you want to call it) course of action. The USSR was never purely Marxist - it was an attempt at establishing a workers' state, but the bureaucracy inevitably took over... or perhaps it could even be that the "bureaucratic takeover" was engineered from the start, depending on how pessimistic you want to be. In practice, the Soviet Union wound up being just like every other state capitalist society. This is why all the hysteria about either the USSR or Obama being a Marxist is quite frankly laughable to me.

    The stated end goals of Marxism would represent a real threat to the balance of power that Obama and other statists crave. It is simply much more efficient to allow public attention to be diverted to a boogeyman ideology or group of people, while stealthily carrying out the status quo agenda. I really don't think Obama cares if people call him Marxist.

    Acala honestly hit it right on the head (as usual).

    As for the ten planks... we're honestly not there. I bolded the ones that are ... questionable, to say the least. Note that some of these are also necessary in order to promote state capitalism... which just shows that statism overlaps no matter what.
    Try not paying your property taxes, or your car tags, let's see how long you own your property. Which, btw, has nothing to do with capitalism.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothbardian Girl View Post
    Regulations =/= state control or takeover. Regulations are designed to give certain private interests an advantage over others. The government also has not successfully taken over all education, either - otherwise homeschooling and private schooling would be outlawed on a federal level. Your link also admits that we do not have communal farms in the US, which is actually a really important plank of the Marxist platform. Central banks have been around for a long time, before Marxism was even in its infancy. Therefore, I would suggest that they are not really a characteristic of Marxism itself, but statism in general.
    There are communal farms in L.A. And California is trying to make homeschooling illegal. Transition is an incremental process. We can quibble over labels, but the fact remains, we have adopted the planks and are implementing them gradually.
    Last edited by Deborah K; 11-26-2012 at 10:48 AM.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Try not paying your property taxes, or your car tags, let's see how long you own your property. Which, btw, has nothing to do with capitalism.
    As far as I'm aware, when you don't pay your property taxes, your property is seized and auctioned -- not nationalized.
    e: Are you sure the farms in LA aren't communal as in public ownership? (public is not the same as state ownership) -- Sorry if you misunderstood me on this point - I was simply quoting your link and should have clarified the distinction between communal in a publicly-owned sense and in a state-owned sense.
    Last edited by Rothbardian Girl; 11-26-2012 at 10:49 AM.
    Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothbardian Girl View Post
    As far as I'm aware, when you don't pay your property taxes, your property is seized and auctioned -- not nationalized.
    e: Are you sure the farms in LA aren't communal as in public ownership? (public is not the same as state ownership) -- Sorry if you misunderstood me on this point - I was simply quoting your link and should have clarified the distinction between communal in a publicly-owned sense and in a state-owned sense.
    You'll have to explain the difference. I am of the understanding that public-owned is state-owned, since both require the taxpayer for funding.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothbardian Girl View Post
    As far as I'm aware, when you don't pay your property taxes, your property is seized and auctioned -- not nationalized.
    e: Are you sure the farms in LA aren't communal as in public ownership? (public is not the same as state ownership) -- Sorry if you misunderstood me on this point - I was simply quoting your link and should have clarified the distinction between communal in a publicly-owned sense and in a state-owned sense.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Central_Farm
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  21. #18
    There are many perceptions of what the terms communist, socialist and facist really mean. This is not by accident. Blurring of lines and defintions is a key technique in manipulating the masses.

    Leaving definitions behind, one of the most important of the failed characteristics of societies which have been called socialist or communist is central control and planning, especially when it comes to the economy. This is always a sure road to failure. Ths is the path that the US has taken. This is the path that Obama advocates. He wants a centrally controlled and planned economy, paid for by "capitalists". This is the new public/private partnership. Instead of hanging capitalists with their own rope, the centralists want the capitalists to pay for a centrally controlled society. In exchange, the elite of the "capitalists" are invited to share in directing, planning, manipulating and controlling the economy and society. True market forces are to be ignored. The Federal Reserve is an important part of this scheme.

    What we have is the central economic planning of communist and socialist countries, combined with the public/private partnership of classic fascist economies.

    And the manipulated masses advocate one and demonize the other in this false left/right theater. Democrats line up on the socialist side, while the Republcans line up behind the corporatist side, and neither realize that they are both pushing the same hybrid agenda of central control. Whether the figurehead of this central control is a compassionate socialist (Obama), or an experienced, "successful" corporatist (Romney) is meaningless. It's just two sales pitches for a single structure.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  22. #19
    After the collapse I hope there are enough of us who are willing to turn the so-called 'black market', into the new FREE market, and I hope we FINALLY have a tax revolt.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    There are many perceptions of what the terms communist, socialist and facist really mean. This is not by accident. Blurring of lines and defintions is a key technique in manipulating the masses.

    Leaving definitions behind, one of the most important of the failed characteristics of societies which have been called socialist or communist is central control and planning, especially when it comes to the economy. This is always a sure road to failure. Ths is the path that the US has taken. This is the path that Obama advocates. He wants a centrally controlled and planned economy, paid for by "capitalists". This is the new public/private partnership. Instead of hanging capitalists with their own rope, the centralists want the capitalists to pay for a centrally controlled society. In exchange, the elite of the "capitalists" are invited to share in directing, planning, manipulating and controlling the economy and society. True market forces are to be ignored. The Federal Reserve is an important part of this scheme.

    What we have is the central economic planning of communist and socialist countries, combined with the public/private partnership of classic fascist economies.

    And the manipulated masses advocate one and demonize the other in this false left/right theater. Democrats line up on the socialist side, while the Republcans line up behind the corporatist side, and neither realize that they are both pushing the same hybrid agenda of central control. Whether the figurehead of this central control is a compassionate socialist (Obama), or an experienced, "successful" corporatist (Romney) is meaningless. It's just two sales pitches for a single structure.
    The CENTRAL feature of Marxism/communism was worker ownership and control of the means of production. That essentially does not exist in the USA and is not on the agenda of Obama or anyone else in power to my knowledge. Just the opposite.

    Of course the USA is heading inexorably towards greater central control of the economy, but it has been since long before Obama was even born.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothbardian Girl View Post
    All this says to me is that capitalists typically try to cloak their behavior in radicalism, even though they actually follow a pretty cut-and-dry capitalist/state-capitalist/crony-capitalist (whatever you want to call it) course of action. The USSR was never purely Marxist - it was an attempt at establishing a workers' state, but the bureaucracy inevitably took over... or perhaps it could even be that the "bureaucratic takeover" was engineered from the start, depending on how pessimistic you want to be. In practice, the Soviet Union wound up being just like every other state capitalist society. This is why all the hysteria about either the USSR or Obama being a Marxist is quite frankly laughable to me.

    You know, that's the same argument the socialists use. Mention obamacare: that's not real socialism. It's crony capitalism! They'll scream on and on how something is NOT socialist/marxist/communist. Somehow, it's never the right kind. That's part of their strategy to disarm us into thinking nothing is happening. There are different forms of marxism. Here in the U.S., they've honed it to cultural marxism. Make a cultural icon out of the leader. Once demoralization is complete, it won't matter what he does, he will not be impeached. Why do you think obama has gotten away with so much? Fast & furious, Benghazi, no proof of citizenship. He announced his victory before the votes were even counted. There was massive fraud involved. He had thugs at the polling station. He went to church with a racist preacher. None of this mattered.

    The stated end goals of Marxism would represent a real threat to the balance of power that Obama and other statists crave. It is simply much more efficient to allow public attention to be diverted to a boogeyman ideology or group of people, while stealthily carrying out the status quo agenda. I really don't think Obama cares if people call him Marxist.

    Acala honestly hit it right on the head (as usual).

    As for the ten planks... we're honestly not there. I bolded the ones that are ... questionable, to say the least. Note that some of these are also necessary in order to promote state capitalism... which just shows that statism overlaps no matter what.
    You know, that's the same argument the socialists use. Mention obamacare: that's not real socialism. It's crony capitalism! They'll scream on and on how something is NOT socialist/marxist/communist. Somehow, it's never the right kind. That's part of their strategy to disarm us into thinking nothing is happening. There are different forms of marxism. Here in the U.S., they've honed it to cultural marxism. Make a cultural icon out of the leader. Once demoralization is complete, it won't matter what he does, he will not be impeached. Why do you think obama has gotten away with so much? Fast & furious, Benghazi, no proof of citizenship. He announced his victory before the votes were even counted. There was massive fraud involved. He had thugs at the polling station. He went to church with a racist preacher. None of this mattered.
    The things you mentioned that haven't happened. Finish the sentence with a yet. I hope you'll be laughing when they take away your weapons and seize your bank accounts and property.
    I know. I have family that believes in socialism. My brother and his wife think it's fine to vandalize someone's property.........a Hummer got keyed, and they think it 'serves them right' for wasting their money that way. My father gets communist newspapers. He believes no one should have more than $20,000. Steal the rest of their money and 'redistribute' it.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothbardian Girl View Post
    All this says to me is that capitalists typically try to cloak their behavior in radicalism, even though they actually follow a pretty cut-and-dry capitalist/state-capitalist/crony-capitalist (whatever you want to call it) course of action. The USSR was never purely Marxist - it was an attempt at establishing a workers' state, but the bureaucracy inevitably took over... or perhaps it could even be that the "bureaucratic takeover" was engineered from the start, depending on how pessimistic you want to be. In practice, the Soviet Union wound up being just like every other state capitalist society. This is why all the hysteria about either the USSR or Obama being a Marxist is quite frankly laughable to me.

    The stated end goals of Marxism would represent a real threat to the balance of power that Obama and other statists crave. It is simply much more efficient to allow public attention to be diverted to a boogeyman ideology or group of people, while stealthily carrying out the status quo agenda. I really don't think Obama cares if people call him Marxist.

    Acala honestly hit it right on the head (as usual).

    As for the ten planks... we're honestly not there. I bolded the ones that are ... questionable, to say the least. Note that some of these are also necessary in order to promote state capitalism... which just shows that statism overlaps no matter what.
    You guys just debating the levels we are at. You both are saying it is very bad but we still can get worse
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  26. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    The CENTRAL feature of Marxism/communism was worker ownership and control of the means of production. That essentially does not exist in the USA and is not on the agenda of Obama or anyone else in power to my knowledge. Just the opposite.

    Of course the USA is heading inexorably towards greater central control of the economy, but it has been since long before Obama was even born.
    Semantics. Given the biased court system as well as the sheer lunacy of the arbitration process, workers technically "own" the means of production. Often the only escape is to move your operation off-shore. Or in the case of the federal and state governments, just grin & bear it.
    Last edited by AuH20; 11-26-2012 at 11:40 AM.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    The CENTRAL feature of Marxism/communism was worker ownership and control of the means of production. That essentially does not exist in the USA and is not on the agenda of Obama or anyone else in power to my knowledge.
    Yes, in theory. Not necessarily of socialism though. But that's just semantics at this point.
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  29. #25
    I like to give credit where credit is due. The Republicans share the blame just as much as the Democrats in bringing crony-capitalism, socialism, or whatever jargon you want to apply to it. The Republicans could have unilaterally cut spending dramatically simply by not raising the debt ceiling last year and they call themselves the part of small govt. What a load of BS.
    Last edited by lx43; 11-26-2012 at 11:40 AM.
    In 200 years the American people have replaced 1 dictator 3,000 miles away with 3,000 dictators 1 mile away.


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  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by lx43 View Post
    I like to give credit where credit is due. The Republicans share the blame just as much as the Democrats in bring crony-capitalism, socialism, or whatever jargon you want to apply to it. The Republicans could have unilaterally cut spending dramatically simply by not raising the debt ceiling last year and they call themselves the part of small govt. What a load of BS.
    Yup. They are largely fungible. That is why I laugh at the people who think the re-election of Obama was some huge watershed. Obama = Dubya = Romney = McCain etc.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

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  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Yup. They are largely fungible. That is why I laugh at the people who think the re-election of Obama was some huge watershed. Obama = Dubya = Romney = McCain etc.
    I agree, to be honest with you I have absolutely no respect for the Republicans--with the exception of Ron Paul and a handful of others who I hold to high esteem. At least with the Democrats they speak about big govt and vote that way. With the Republicans they babble about small govt then vote for big govt.
    In 200 years the American people have replaced 1 dictator 3,000 miles away with 3,000 dictators 1 mile away.


    It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority.--Benjamin Franklin

    No man's life, liberty or fortune is safe
    while our legislature is in session
    .--Benjamin Franklin

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by BAllen View Post
    You know, that's the same argument the socialists use. Mention obamacare: that's not real socialism. It's crony capitalism! They'll scream on and on how something is NOT socialist/marxist/communist. Somehow, it's never the right kind. That's part of their strategy to disarm us into thinking nothing is happening. There are different forms of marxism. Here in the U.S., they've honed it to cultural marxism. Make a cultural icon out of the leader. Once demoralization is complete, it won't matter what he does, he will not be impeached. Why do you think obama has gotten away with so much? Fast & furious, Benghazi, no proof of citizenship. He announced his victory before the votes were even counted. There was massive fraud involved. He had thugs at the polling station. He went to church with a racist preacher. None of this mattered.
    The things you mentioned that haven't happened. Finish the sentence with a yet. I hope you'll be laughing when they take away your weapons and seize your bank accounts and property.
    I know. I have family that believes in socialism. My brother and his wife think it's fine to vandalize someone's property.........a Hummer got keyed, and they think it 'serves them right' for wasting their money that way. My father gets communist newspapers. He believes no one should have more than $20,000. Steal the rest of their money and 'redistribute' it.
    Something is certainly happening - but it's an inexorable push towards state capitalism and continuing the status quo, not TRUE worker ownership of the means of production. Otherwise Obama's biggest donors would start losing a lot of money - something that would not sit well with them. Obama is about as state-capitalist as you can get.

    The cults of personality around both Obama and Romney, and pretty much anyone in power, can just as well be explained by a phenomenon called cultural hegemony, which, -GASP-, was chiefly developed by a Marxist philosopher named Antonio Gramsci. He suggested that the ruling class of a society (in this country, it is the mainstream media, financial interests, the people in DC and their gaggles of cronies) purposefully manipulate the culture of a society (beliefs, values, mores) so that the only accepted and valid worldview is the one imposed by the elites. In reality, their worldview benefits no one but themselves, but the masses embrace it anyway. I see people complaining about a similar phenomenon on these forums all the time. I certainly hope they wouldn't discard it just because Gramsci came up with it.

    The modern state essentially needs food in the form of people and revenues to keep itself going. The crony business interests in this country, partnered with the state, need people to buy their mass-produced, artificially cheap junk, and they need boots on the ground to keep the war machine up and running. It therefore is not in the best interests of the state to overtly deprive masses of people of their property or bank accounts.

    I think the culture of the United States is still very much centered around the Protestant work ethic, which makes it a little easier to perpetuate the myth that our current economic system is a result of a free market. Therefore, the elites, if you will, have an easier time imposing their particular Weltanschauung in this country. The idea is to keep everyone believing that our circumstances are a natural result of hard work and American prosperity (in short -- the Horatio Alger myth). It is honestly a sham - even when things appeared to be going successfully (people like to hearken back to the Guilded Age a lot, as an example), the reality is that the government was highly involved in propping up businesses back then as well.

    A lot of people here may think it's just semantics -- fine -- but your view fails to explain a lot of the friction between different variants of communism; how China and the USSR weren't on the best of terms, the fighting between Cambodia and Vietnam, the division within other European "communist" countries, etc. Marxism, socialism and capitalism (just about any -ism in political theory, really) aren't monolithic. There is a lot of variety and gray area, and I personally believe it borders on intellectual dishonesty not to recognize that.
    Last edited by Rothbardian Girl; 11-26-2012 at 01:39 PM. Reason: wording fixes
    Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson

  33. #29
    Obama is definitely not a communist. Obama is a fascist, but most of all a puppet for someone else calling the shots.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Sorry, but I am not seeing communism here. Crony-capitalism? Yup. Fabian socialism? Yup. Fascism? Yup. Communism? Not seeing it. Marxism? Not seeing it.
    This^^
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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