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Thread: Spain fears break-up as Catalonia votes

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Go Catalonians!

    This does, however, raise interesting questions.

    Would a seceded Catalonia still be party to any agreements and treaties to which Spain is?

    Will and independent Catalonia bear some proportion of Spain's national debt? If not, why not? If so, why, and more importantly, how much? How is it calculated?

    Were I the Catalonians, I would tell Spain to take their debt and shove it. I would tell the world bankers to fuck off.n Dangerous, but that's never stopped me before.
    I seriously want to see this happen, and watch just how the whole thing plays out. I wish them all success and hope they proceed wisely.
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    the government is my servant.
    I am not its servant.
    Quote Originally Posted by aGameOfThrones View Post
    They are there to eat doughnuts and fuck people up and throw them in jail... and they're all out of doughnuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yes, they did.

    The warnings were simply ignored.

    They were warned by men called the Anti Federalists.



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Go Catalonians!

    This does, however, raise interesting questions.

    Would a seceded Catalonia still be party to any agreements and treaties to which Spain is?

    Will and independent Catalonia bear some proportion of Spain's national debt? If not, why not? If so, why, and more importantly, how much? How is it calculated?

    Were I the Catalonians, I would tell Spain to take their debt and shove it. I would tell the world bankers to fuck off.n Dangerous, but that's never stopped me before.
    I would say that they would not be party to any treaties and would not owe any of the debt. Unless, of course, they agree to it as one of the terms of secession. Why? Because Spain's debt is in the form of Spanish government notes. It is the treasurer of Spain's signature on those documents, not the treasurer of Catalonia. If Spain dissolved, that might be another matter.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

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  4. #33

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    Ive been posting about this for a long time. This like many things has futbol in its blood.

    Im a Barcelona fan because they want to secede from Spain.

    Real Madrid vs Barcelona is the biggest single viewed sporting game.

    Football Rivalries-Barcelona v Real Madrid
    http://youtu.be/q1rI2i433q0


    The next "El Clasico" will be CRAZY!!!

  5. #34
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    http://enews.earthlink.net/article/i...d-da37ac301197
    Independence drive falters for Spain's Catalonia
    From Associated Press
    November 26, 2012 2:53 PM EST
    MADRID (AP) — Voters in Spain's Catalonia region favored the right to decide on possible independence but split their ballots between fractious parties, making the prospect of secession less likely than ever.

    Artur Mas, leader of the northeastern region's ruling center-right coalition, had sought an absolute majority in Sunday's vote to get a mandate for an independence referendum that the central government says would be unconstitutional. But his Convergence and Union party lost seats while a fierce rival, the pro-independence Republican Left of Catalonia, made big gains.

    Mas told reporters Monday night he would not resign, was still committed to pushing for a referendum that he thinks will happen within four years and would try in the coming weeks to cobble together a coalition majority.

    "We detected a sociological change in Catalonia supporting sovereignty," he said. "The people have spoken and now the situation is clearer and more complicated."

    Spain's central government in Madrid predicted Monday that the result will mark the end of a secession vote drive that has distracted authorities who are trying to prevent Spain from being forced into a bailout.

    While the two Catalonian parties share the goal of holding the referendum, they are far apart on almost everything else and analysts said it would be very difficult for them to form an alliance.
    More at link.
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  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Freedom is messy.
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    the government is my servant.
    I am not its servant.
    Quote Originally Posted by aGameOfThrones View Post
    They are there to eat doughnuts and fuck people up and throw them in jail... and they're all out of doughnuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yes, they did.

    The warnings were simply ignored.

    They were warned by men called the Anti Federalists.

  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by TXcarlosTX View Post
    Ive been posting about this for a long time. This like many things has futbol in its blood.

    Im a Barcelona fan because they want to secede from Spain.

    Real Madrid vs Barcelona is the biggest single viewed sporting game.

    Football Rivalries-Barcelona v Real Madrid
    http://youtu.be/q1rI2i433q0


    The next "El Clasico" will be CRAZY!!!
    That's funny. I'm a Real Madrid fan, not because of politics, but because I've been a fan since I was young. But I've always supported the Catalonians and the Basque for that matter, for their right to independence.

  8. #37

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    Who would guess that Texans are the ones that watch football the most

    In any case Juventus all the way to the grave.

  9. #38
    Member osan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    I would say that they would not be party to any treaties and would not owe any of the debt. Unless, of course, they agree to it as one of the terms of secession. Why? Because Spain's debt is in the form of Spanish government notes. It is the treasurer of Spain's signature on those documents, not the treasurer of Catalonia. If Spain dissolved, that might be another matter.
    I'd tell them to get bent about the debt part.

    This leads me to the next question: were Spain to break into, say, half a dozen autonomous states or what have you, where would their debt go? I suspect their creditors would be left holding the basket... for a while. I do suppose, however, that they would resort to the same old thing to which they have always turned: war. OTOH, I wonder if that would work under such a circumstance.
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    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

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  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanilluxe View Post
    My French professor supports independence for Quebec.
    That last independence vote was rigged... Quebec should of been independent from her majesty's masters long ago. It all depends on the tactical and strategic value by the NWO.

    Here's a little refresher course on Australia... in 1985 they made a movie that touched on it called, Falcon & the Snowman.

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  11. #40

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    This "independence" they speak of is a joke. Regardless of what they do, both main political parties are EU-controlled and will remain part of the EU federation which arguably (at this point) is a country in its own right. The EU is an extremely oppressive, liberal-socialist dictatorship. Spain's problems are not entirely Spain's fault - a lot of it is the fault of crazy federalists in Brussels and Strasbourg constantly pushing for more bailouts, who will remain in power whether Catalonia is in Spain or not.

    The EU has two presidents. One is an unelected dictator, Herman Van Rompuy. The other is someone indirectly elected by the European Parliament, the former Maoist revolutionary José Barroso, who in 2009 when he was elected, was the only candidate on the ballot. Barroso has a cabinet of "Commissioners", all unelected, that have the sole power to make new European Union law. Members of the elected European Parliament cannot make EU law at all. Barroso's VP and foreign affairs representative is a woman, Catherine Ashton, who has never held any elected office in her life, who was previously involved in a scandal in which she received money from the USSR via the British Communist Party.

    The EU is a tyranny, and it is no wonder that the people of Greece, Spain and Portugal, where rockets and molotovs are being fired at police, are taking up arms against it.
    Last edited by compromise; 11-26-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    I'd tell them to get bent about the debt part.

    This leads me to the next question: were Spain to break into, say, half a dozen autonomous states or what have you, where would their debt go? I suspect their creditors would be left holding the basket... for a while. I do suppose, however, that they would resort to the same old thing to which they have always turned: war. OTOH, I wonder if that would work under such a circumstance.
    If it is a complete brake up then every state would get a % of the debt equal to the % of GDP it had in the union.Catalonia would there for get 1/5 of the debt.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demigod View Post
    If it is a complete brake up then every state would get a % of the debt equal to the % of GDP it had in the union.Catalonia would there for get 1/5 of the debt.
    How do you arrive at this conclusion?
    --

    http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
    http://turnyourbackonthem.wordpress.com

    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

  14. #43

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    So what if they told them to go pound sand and created their own currency?
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    the government is my servant.
    I am not its servant.
    Quote Originally Posted by aGameOfThrones View Post
    They are there to eat doughnuts and fuck people up and throw them in jail... and they're all out of doughnuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yes, they did.

    The warnings were simply ignored.

    They were warned by men called the Anti Federalists.

  15. #44
    Member Tod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demigod View Post
    If it is a complete brake up then every state would get a % of the debt equal to the % of GDP it had in the union.Catalonia would there for get 1/5 of the debt.
    If that is the case, then Catalonians could decide to liquidate their share rather than be forever saddled with debt their irresponsible leaders took on.
    "Sorry, guys, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."

  16. #45

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    The debt doesn't matter at all, because as long as Catalonia remains in the EU, it will be helping pay off the European Union's debt, which is $16 trillion at the moment. So Catalonia will pay for Spain whether it is in Spain or not, just as Germany, Finland and the Netherlands currently do.
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  17. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by compromise View Post
    The debt doesn't matter at all, because as long as Catalonia remains in the EU, it will be helping pay off the European Union's debt, which is $16 trillion at the moment. So Catalonia will pay for Spain whether it is in Spain or not, just as Germany, Finland and the Netherlands currently do.
    True, and good point.
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    the government is my servant.
    I am not its servant.
    Quote Originally Posted by aGameOfThrones View Post
    They are there to eat doughnuts and fuck people up and throw them in jail... and they're all out of doughnuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yes, they did.

    The warnings were simply ignored.

    They were warned by men called the Anti Federalists.

  18. #47

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    Punished at the Polls, Catalonia’s Artur Mas is Heading for Grim Coalition
    By Maria Tadeo
    Notebook, The Foreign Desk
    Wednesday, 28 November 2012 at 11:10 am

    On Sunday night Catalonia’s Artur Mas was set to win a landslide political victory that soon tuned into a bitter disappointment. Yes, Mr Mas was re-elected but he emerged as the biggest loser of the night. The leader of centre-right separatist party Convergence and Union (CiU) won 50 out of 135 parliamentary seats. But the result was a far cry from the 68-seats ‘exceptional’ majority that CiU hoped to win in order to call for a referendum on Catalonia’s independence.

    Ironically, his party’s push toward independence bolstered left-wing separatists Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya (ERC), the real winner of the night, which capitalised on Mr Mas’ unexpected fall by winning 21 seats and effectively becoming Catalonia’s second largest political majority. Overall, a group of pro-referendum parties won Sunday’s regional elections, which recorded the highest participation rate since 1988, taking control of almost two-third of a very fragmented Catalan parliament. That same night, Mr Mas admitted that his party would have to form a coalition government and he seems to be heading towards an awkward union with ERC.

    Both parties have a long history of political bickering stretching back to 2003, when a block of left-wing parties led by Catalonia’s socialists and ERC forced Mr Mas out of the presidency by forming a coalition government known as “the tripartite” in power until 2010. Mr Mas fought hard to bring the tripartite down in the previous elections; but after Sunday’s results, he is right back where he started, only this time ERC hold the key to CiU’s political ambitions and they will negotiate accordingly.

    A coalition union between left-wing and conservative separatists could work on the basis of shared self-determination goals, although they disagree on the timing of the plebiscite; ERC wants it by 2014, unlike CiU, which has set a four-year deadline. However, moving closer to ERC could jeopardise Mr Mas’ austerity measures aimed at reducing Catalonia’s deficit to 1.5 percent of its GDP from 3.7 percent in 2011. Earlier this week, Oriol Junqueras, leader of ERC, warned that CiU must reverse its economic policy to win his party’s support, which is strongly opposed to austerity and wants higher taxes on the wealthy. This could alienate CiU’s pro-business supporters and poses a threat to CiU’s budget. But Mr Mas has been cornered after losing 12 crucial seats and ERC will push him hard to get what they want.

    If a CiU-ERC coalition proves unsuccessful, Mr Mas could turn to Catalonia’s socialist party to form an anti-Rajoy block. In this case, the dire state of Catalonia’s large, but highly indebted economy, would take centre stage. A CiU-PSC cohort could unite against the Spanish PM hoping to get a better tax deal from Madrid. A priori, this would seem a good deal for the socialist party after losing badly in the regional elections in Galicia and the Basque country last month. But pro-union socialists have become increasingly wary of Mr Mas’ separatist agenda and he would have to give up his plebiscite for this coalition to work.

    Pere Navarro, leader of Catalonia’s socialists and supporter of regional federalism within Spain, has said it would be “difficult” to reach an agreement with Mr Mas while Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba, leader of Spain’s socialist party, added that “Mas is not Catalonia” and Sunday’s elections are a testament to that. Mr Mas may be determined to keep his separatist agenda untouched, but he may have to tame his rhetoric in a desperate attempt to get the socialist party on board and push through next year’s budget.

    After all, this doesn’t seem so unlikely considering how Mr Mas has gone from being a moderate Catalan nationalist to leading the secessionist movement in less than 24 months. Back in 2010, Mr Mas told Spain’s Vanity Fair magazine that Catalonia’s place was “not outside, but next to Spain and in a European context”. He’s also made Mr Rajoy’s pro-union PP party his de facto ally to pass two unpopular austerity bills in parliament-and perhaps this opportunistic entente cordial between Mr Mas and PP explains why the separatist vote favoured ERC on Sunday night.

    Mr Mas called for a snap-election on 25 September halting his party’s four-year mandate prematurely after Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy refused to renegotiate Catalonia’s tax redistribution system. Catalonia’s regional president pressed ahead with plans to call for a referendum on self-determination backed by seemingly unprecedented nationalist support after close to 1.5 million people marched in favour of independence on 11 September.

    However, in light of Sunday’s results, Mr Mas may have overestimated public support for his party, which has presented three austerity bills in 18 months and asked Madrid for a five billion euros bailout package since assuming office in 2010. Catalonia’s credit rating was slashed to junk status by Standard& Poor’s and severe spending cuts in healthcare benefits were introduced under his administration.

    Punished at the polls, Catalonia’s incumbent regional president is facing a bittersweet scenario. He needs a coalition that could swing from pro-referendum leftists to pro-union socialists. Both scenarios are a setback for Mr Mas. Along the way, he’s alienated CiU’s most moderate voters and placed ERC as the champion of separatism. Meanwhile, in Madrid, the central government is breathing a sigh for relief and the Spanish press has come together under the same headline “Mas Fails“.

    Even if he decides to continue alone as a minority government, Mr Mas will be challenged by a very fragmented parliament ranging from pro-unionist to federalists and a strong left-wing block led by ERC- and make no mistake, as separatist as it may be, ERC is no ally. At best, Mr Mas will be able to forge a working coalition with ERC. At worst, Catalonia becomes ungovernable.

    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/...fxd*0*sfxd*0@@
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    the government is my servant.
    I am not its servant.
    Quote Originally Posted by aGameOfThrones View Post
    They are there to eat doughnuts and fuck people up and throw them in jail... and they're all out of doughnuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yes, they did.

    The warnings were simply ignored.

    They were warned by men called the Anti Federalists.

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