I figured you guys would get a kick out of this progressive piece:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/11/2...boost-economy/
i'll bite
“Families living in or near poverty spend close to 100 percent of their income just to meet their basic needs, so when they receive an extra dollar in pay, they spend it on goods or services that were out of reach before. This ongoing unmet need makes low-income households more likely to spend new earnings immediately – channeling any addition to their income right back into theeconomythe company they work for that was forced to raise prices to make their business viable after being forced to raise wages by people who believe this study is more than a crock of $#@!, creatinggrowth and jobsa larger tax income for government and others who like to redistribute wealth,” the report said.
Lol... They simply have no understanding of economics or wealth creation. Money is not wealth.
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
That's right, they don't. They are the ones in power. Give them what they want. Push for unions in retail. What's the old Greek slogan? Whom the gods would destroy they give him everything he wants.
I think they left out the simple facts of increased product pricing and job cuts. I mean, would a company want to pay all of their employees $25k a year to man the cash register or stock shelves? I highly doubt that.Originally Posted by CaptUSA
Yup, higher retail wages would just make fewer people work harder.
Higher wages would drive more people into poverty because of higher prices.
"...but of how wealth accrues he was unteachable. It grew as on a tree, he conceived; to get it, you must kill your gardener, and lay an ax to the root of the golden bough."
--Paterson, Isabel. The Singing Season (Romance of Old)
Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
--Albert J. Nock
No $#@!, Sherlock. More money means more money? Who would've guessed.
Of course, nobody seems to realize that businesses even have budgets. Why is this such a hard concept for liberals?
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Study says: Giving everyone a million dollars would make everyone a millionaire.
The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.
"Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron
"Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton
Yeah, lets force higher wages. Oh wait, that means prices will rise. They better fix prices so they don't rise. Oh wait, that means there will be nothing to buy. Hmm, I wonder if that Sound Money thing could make things affordable.
"When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat
Peace.
The comments on the article are absolutely mind-numbing....................
Lord Jesus,please come soon.
Yeah! Free money!
raising minimum wage every time results in worse economy,but its getting worse at the same time from other things.
Like this one?
So, we also need price controls!WAC•2 hours ago
While this sounds good on the surface, it would have to be accompanied by other economic reforms to work. Raising the wage alone, would only embolden corporations to increase prices on basic necessities. Within a year, workers would be in the same position they are in now.
Honestly, if retail workers made more and as a consequence executives made less to offset it, that would probably be a good thing for the economy and everyone. Not that I think it's the government's business to set a higher wage, but I think the people can threaten to Unionize if they want to.
However, I've come to think inflation contributes to the upward shift of wealth. What if we give these retail workers a wage boost but then further devalue the money? They'll eventually be back where they were before if not worse off.
Higher retail wages are good and do not translate 1:1 into higher prices, as labor is not the totality of input costs that go into the end price of products and services. It is certainly more desirable than lower wages at the bottom creating more wealth at the top.
This is not an argument to force anybody to do anything, of course. Without govt violence in the economy retail wages would already be much higher in real terms than they presently are.
Sometimes I wonder if it's government along with other factors like insurance. I mean it gets to be a pile of paperwork just to hire anybody. I think it all leads to a Human Resources department that becomes much bigger than it really should be.
I mean what if all the paperwork baloney could be cut out of staffing would that money shift to the actual retail employee?
Overly simplistic wealth creation model:
If I value my labor at $9/hr and you pay me $10/hr, I gain $1 each hour.
If you value my labor at $11/hr and you pay me $10/hr, you gain $1 each hour.
We've created $2 of wealth due to this transaction!
If I value my labor at $9/hr and you pay me $12/hr, I gain $3 each hour.
If you value my labor at $11/hr and you pay me $12/hr, you lose $1 each hour.
Does that mean we still created $2?
NO! Because you wouldn't pay me that! You'd be losing wealth!
The only way a transaction happens is when both parties create wealth.
If you force one party to lose wealth, they will either leave, stop doing business, or go out of business.
The only answer here is that if you want to make more wealth, make sure your employer values your work more. That means work harder!
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
Lol. Progressives are bad at math.
I am the spoon.
So, how much money is spent on executives (wages/execs) and how much would cutting their salaries contribute to the income of the hourly workers?
Example $1,000,000.00 split among 100,000 employees would be $10 each. Any "REAL" figures to work with?
The real way to wealth is often to work smarter, not harder. I do think often people work hard and put in time. They see no real gains or meaningful raises and are like what the $#@!.
If people, in particular Retail workers, see a pattern of this it's discouraging and demotivating. The rewards for hard work don't seem real to many people. Unless maybe you are really socking away money into your employer's stock at a discount.
Anyway, I'm not sure I can see a human being as just the some of their job description. Not to say a job is a charity, but if a company has a prosperous year give a bonus to the employees instead of chucking that money into the stock dividends. I think good wages can be like an investment in your workforce. Hopefully it foster good work morale and you are positioned to hire better people.
I also think the argument about the value of work contribution could be discussed at the executive level as well and really question if those execs really are worth their extravagant salaries. We should ask if money is being lost at the top level not just with people on the retail floor.
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rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler
I wasn't sure if I should look at a single company and number crunch it because all companies have their unique circumstances. If I crunched numbers for Walmart then I'd be countered with Target or Meijer or Costco.
I think the premise is reasonable that lower incomes being raised would be helpful. No, I don't think a government solution is appropriate at all. I want to be clear on that.
I also just suggested lower executive wages as just one way to offset it.
Maybe I'm just a little sympathetic because I used to be a Walmart employee a long time ago. I can't imagine how anyone could afford even a modest studio apartment on those wages.
Last edited by VIDEODROME; 11-21-2012 at 03:33 PM.
Um no. Instead, how about using a laissez fare approach to the free market? I just saw an ad in my small town for a police officer. Do you know what the starting wage was? $39,000! Now tell me how they can pay an entry level (non degree) grunt 39k when a lot of private companies around here don't like to offer that kind of salary to an entry level grad WITH a bachelors?
Even my small town is doing well apparently. Government takes from the hard workers who can't earn a decent wage and gives it to the hut hut squads and public managers.
Oh, and I will NEVER consider that position!
Last edited by AFPVet; 11-21-2012 at 04:00 PM.
Indianensis Universitatis Alumnus
The real problem is that there are encumbrances on both sides imposed by government that saps so much of the wealth creation that many transactions that normally would happen become economically infeasible for one or both sides of the transaction. It's not the $1 here or there that is the issue, it's the $5+ that the government takes that is the barrier to getting work done.
While I think higher wages are a good thing, you're right we have to accept the reality of market forces.
Forcefully doing things like price controls or even raising wages through government and and force of law is a mistake. You can't strong arm the market into behaving a certain way. I think that approach is futile.
I do think the way staff is compensated should have more considerations then just the value of their labor. For example, how about this Black Friday? Suppose on the ground level in big box stores there is a great deal of commerce. Where should that money go? Couldn't some of those retail employees see a bonus in a profitable year? Or do the execs spread the profit amongst themselves and the stock holders and give the retail employees some cheap pizza party? I think that kind of thing is a lousy part of capitalism or at least either lousy leadership or an strange ingrained part of big business.
Again to emphasize I Do Not Call For Government Intervention. Just stating my honest observations as a former Walmart employee.
of course the income amount to qualify for the "poverty" level would increase as the cost of goods would rise dramatically.
like a dog chasing its tail......
"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
James Madison
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams
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Ok, now that you've had some time to chew on this, let's flip it, shall we?!
If I value my labor at $9/hr and someone would only pay me $8/hr, I would find another place to work! If market conditions dictated my labor wasn't worth $9/hr, then I outpriced my labor. But what if I was forced by some government to continue to lose this value? Would that make sense to anyone?!
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
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