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Thread: Gaza under attack by Israel

  1. #211

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    Here's what that Fuckwad Asshole Gary Bauer has tweeted:

    Tweets

    Gary L Bauer ‏@GaryLBauer

    Missiles in #Gaza are being supplied by Iran & Al Qaeda is operating there. Gaza is proof why Israeli land concessions won't bring peace.

    Collapse
    The latest GAZA casualties: WARNING, Very Graphic

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  3. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by furface View Post
    Excellent point. I've stopped being surprised by the strange arguments that people use for rationalizing Israel, but it's still confusing to hear people say they support non-intervention on one hand and then demand that the US steal billions and give it to Israel on the other.
    not exactly what I meant.

    I suspect most Ron Paul supporters are either pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist, or at the very least, equal opportunity non-interventionist, isolationist. But I suspect lurking between them are some that are happy to intervene for Palestine.

  4. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    not exactly what I meant.

    I suspect most Ron Paul supporters are either pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist, or at the very least, equal opportunity non-interventionist, isolationist. But I suspect lurking between them are some that are happy to intervene for Palestine.
    You make it sound sinister, but it's no different from what many people did during WWII--save, hide and support Jews. Why wouldn't I do the same for Palestinians/Muslims?
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  5. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by puppetmaster View Post
    Where are the Israeli people when this shit happens....why do they not stand up to their terrorist rogue government? Or are they condoning this behavior?
    Such a small country and they still can't control the goons who run it.
    I am so tired of no accountability in government. (especially ours)
    OK, let us take a closer look at what it is you are implying here, however tacitly.

    For starters, we have to dispense with all normative arguments at this point because they are irrelevant in the context of this circumstance where the Arab/Muslim world stands to bring the rest of the world to nuclear war. Make no mistake in failing to take this seriously because if an existential threat arises against Israel, they will have NOTHING to lose by loosing their weapons. When that happens, we can all kiss lives even remotely worth living a fond adios.

    And before you label me as some "jew-loving kisser of Israel's ass", I assure you I am anything but that. At this very moment, pragmatism is actually our friend, painful as that may be to accept. I daresay that not a single one of us understands with any minimal sufficiency the forces working here at the deepest effective levels of material power. I suspect that they are the same powers that lead to Israel's establishment in the first place. Are those powers orchestrating all of this, or did the situation get away from them? Are they the puppeteers pulling various strings to get the players to do as they would have them, or are they now crapping huge loads in their pants as their creations turn against them? I cannot say and I suspect neither can anyone else here. Therefore, we can only deal with what we have before us. If perchance the ring-masters are still in sufficiently full control, then we have no reason to fret because if their power is indeed that complete, then I suspect there is nothing any of is can do except sit back and wait to see how this situation resolves itself.

    Forget whether the Israelis "belong" there, whether they are good or evil people... none of this matters. The Israelis are FACT and I doubt they will go away without the craziest fight-per-pound anyone has ever witnessed - and yes, I mean nukes. I do question why they have tolerated Palestinian presence in "their" territory at all. Is it because they are tolerant people attempting to be fair? Is it due to international pressure to be tolerant? Or is there a deeper strategy at work? We do not know and once again it is irrelevant from the standpoint of whether this is going to get out of hand on a global basis.

    However, one point that is of value in assessing this situation is to realize that the Arabs are not the only religious fanatics involved. Beneath the veneer of rationality lies a core of religious beliefs that drive the Israelis, collectively speaking. God chose them as his people and nobody else. God gave the "holy land" to them and to nobody else. This is what they BELIEVE and in principle it closely mirrors the mindset of the Muslims, differing only in details but not in nature.

    In other words, what we have here is a religious war with a political face painted upon it. These are the basic truths.

    Now, am I mistaken in my understanding that Hamas started lobbing rockets into Israel? If so, why? If this the case, then pray tell us what do you believe the Israeli response should be? We are speaking of Muslims here - people who, statistically taken, respect but one thing: strength. They despise weakness and when the see it they endeavor to destroy it. That is what they DO. Any smoochie-smoochie, lets-be-friends response by Israel will only make the Palestinians want to hurt them all the more. Again this is a RELIGIOUS war and on top of that it is a war of deeply clashing cultures. The likelihood that there is a political solution to the disagreements in question approaches zero.

    Therefore, Israel is faced with a very practical choice: fight or be consumed. I suppose they could all pack their bags and move to NJ, but they will not do that. And even if we grant for argument's sake that the Jews of Europe had no right to go to live in Palestine (an assumption that would violate just about every principle of liberty some of us claim to hold dear), they now have at least a third generation who have been born there and know no other home. If the Arabs "kick them out", to what place shall they go where they would not be likewise unwelcome and having to start all over again?

    I am the first to acknowledge the significant fuck-ups of the Israeli government, but the "Palestinians" are no babes in the woods either. There is plenty of blame to go around there.

    Were YOU king of Israel, how would YOU resolve this, knowing what the realities are WRT the threats looming at your borders? Would you just roll over and die? What endlessly clever thing would you pull out of your hat to save the day for all time such that the Arabs would "come to their senses" and molest your people no more? Is there anything? Or would you endeavor to slaughter the bastards until such time as they got it straight for another generation or so that you mean business and will not be tread upon? These are serious questions and if you cannot answer them, then I suggest that your railing against Israel has not legitimate basis. I am not taking their side against the Arabs - but I am looking at the situation from a practical point of view on the part of the Israelis. Each side has screwed things up. The Arabs told the Jews the piss-off after '45. If freedom - real freedom - is in fact the proper underlying principle of all human relations, then what just cause did they have for denying entry and settlement? So perhaps it was the Arabs who fired the first shots in this decades-long conflict. Why are the Israelis always the bad guys? I have known several and still do and all they want is to not get blowed up real good when they go to the market.

    I understand there are elements at work there that are fanatical - the lubavitchers and their religious mania. On that point I agree with you and others in questioning where are the rest of the people? But you also have to take into consideration that those people are shit-scared. I would also point out that any significant internal conflict would doom Israel to destruction. So the average Moishe is faced with the choice of tolerating the jerks who have seized power or risk annihilation by going out and protesting en-masse. Mr. Rock, meet Mr. Hardplace.

    Given that the Muslim states openly hostile to Israel run from just this side of Turkey to the west coast of Africa, covering what I would imagine must be at least one million square miles, I see no reason to begrudge the Israelis just over 7K squares of sand. This whole deal is dangerously childish and I for one am in no humor for those Muslim assholes to provoke a nuclear exchange with their Israeli counterparts. This is NOT just about them. It is about all of us. If Israel nukes Syria, for example, what exactly do you suppose the Russian response might be? I doubt they will give them hugs and kisses after their people in Damascus become French fries. How about China? Pakistan is so fucking unstable in some ways, one may only hazard a guess as to what they might do.

    This is a powder keg and the imbeciles Arabs with their imbecile messianic jihadist bullshit stand to get us all fracked because it should be born in mind that we do not have to have a hydrogen bomb fall on Manhattan to be sufficiently screwed. Fallout would be everywhere and it will be loads because I am quite confident in my belief that Israel would employ ground bursts rather than air as they do the most damage and produce the most fallout.

    So once again: what is your practical solution to this situation?
    Last edited by osan; 11-20-2012 at 07:05 AM.
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  6. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by squarepusher View Post
    Hamas fires rockets from densely populated civilian centers, using civilians as 'human shields' so any retaliation will have civilian casualties. Are they not allowed to be faulted for being responsible for the death of their own peoples? Hamas charter says they want to destroy Israel, should Israel not be able to defend itself?

    History being as it is, besides the point, Israel built up the area from nothing but a sand dune to a thriving 1st world civilization today. People say Israel stole the Palestinian land but it was nothing before besides dunes and scarce inhabitants. Maybe the 'Palestinians' were there before Israel, but Israel was there thousands of years ago before them. Arguing the 'whos first' point is going to be fruitless as the borders and boundaries change throughout time. That being said Israel has really developed the area into a modern thriving entity, "Palestine" has no industry and is a 3rd world nation with no resources. Why do you support them? If they stopped attacking Israel I bet they would no longer be attacked in retaliation.
    This comment is ludicrous. Let's clear some things up, the Palestinians, even those in Izz Adeen al Qassam brigades, all live in the areas being targeted now in Gaza! When you say they fire rockets from densely populated areas, that's where they live! They are backed in a corner and have no other way to fight, don't you think if they had a choice they would protect the civilians (AKA THEIR FAMILIES) and draw battle away from city centers? Besides I think it's vastly exaggerated and simple propaganda to say that all they do is fight from like, pre-schools, or whatever. it's clearly bullcrap.

    Secondly Israel didn't build a damn thing up, Israel was surviving off reparations from Germany the first half of it's existence, give me a bunch of free money and I'll turn where I live into a Utopia -- besides, it wasn't "dunes", you clearly have a very VERY poor knowledge of geography if you think the Levant is full of sand dunes, what do you think it's the Sahara? Yes Israel made the land more fertile, know how? Stealing water from neighboring countries, look at the Golan Heights!

    Hamas, and Palestinians did not attack first -- by definition NO Palestinian could have attacked an Israeli first, Israel will always be the aggressor, Israel is MURDERING their elected officials, and you're sitting there saying, heh, too bad, don't attack back. Sure if they attack back civilians die since Israel hits them harder, but if they didn't attack back at all, Israel would wipe them out entirely -- there's a reason Americans REFUSE to give up their second amendment right to bear arms. If they did so, it's very possible the tyrannical U.S. government would oppress Americans even more, now that they're disarmed, or if a foreign enemy came they would be powerless to defend their land and families. But you're suggesting the Palestinian people just bow their heads to the Israelis, hand over their weapons and allow Israel to do with them as they please.

    Lastly, this point drives me nuts. The Hebrew people and the Arab people are inter-related, we are Semitic, the Hebrews largely assimilated with the Arabs, as the Arabs influence became more prominent, the Jews were NEVER kicked out of Palestine by Arabs/Muslims, therefore it's not like they were there, we Arabs kicked em out, n now they want back in -- no they European Jews, are not Semitic Jews, Hebrew as a language was nearly extinct until they revived it -- they are NOT Semitic, the original people living there are, they have NO right to the land whatsoever.
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  7. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    Well, it's from The Blaze. Take it for what it's worth.



    Iranian Arms Ship Bound for Gaza Reportedly Carrying Long-Range Rockets Able to Reach Tel Aviv, Jerusalem

    http ://www.theblaze.com/stories/iranian-arms-ship-bound-for-gaza-found-carrying-long-rage-rockets-able-to-reach-tel-aviv-jerusalem/
    Whether or not that story is true, it goes to part of the reason why the state of Israel cannot survive without US support, for both itself and many states in the region. The only reason advanced weapons aren’t in the hands of the Palestinians, the natives of Palestine, in numbers dwarfing that of the Hezbollah fighters of Lebanon, is because of US intervention on its behalf of the ruling regimes of Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and some others. Israel’s nukes are useless in a local guerilla war, which is what they would be facing if such US intervention on their behalf actually ended; and such a guerilla war would tank Israel’s economy in no time, with significant repercussions.

  8. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    Whether or not that story is true, it goes to part of the reason why the state of Israel cannot survive without US support, for both itself and many states in the region. The only reason advanced weapons aren’t in the hands of the Palestinians, the natives of Palestine, in numbers dwarfing that of the Hezbollah fighters of Lebanon, is because of US intervention on its behalf of the ruling regimes of Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and some others. Israel’s nukes are useless in a local guerilla war, which is what they would be facing if such US intervention on their behalf actually ended; and such a guerilla war would tank Israel’s economy in no time, with significant repercussions.
    I told my a-dad this the night of the caucus, and I'll say it again. I am an American. I am NOT an Israeli. I do not care.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  9. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    I told my a-dad this the night of the caucus, and I'll say it again. I am an American. I am NOT an Israeli. I do not care.
    To be clear, I wasn't arguing for US intervention.

  10. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    To be clear, I wasn't arguing for US intervention.
    Right on.

    Israel wanted the land, and they got it. Maybe they didn't think it through. I dunno. All I know is that I don't want their problem to be my problem. I don't like the idea of being the policemen of the world. I am most definitely against the idea of being drawn into WWIII.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  11. #220

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    I suspect most Ron Paul supporters are either pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist, or at the very least, equal opportunity non-interventionist, isolationist. But I suspect lurking between them are some that are happy to intervene for Palestine.
    It's impossible to carry on a conversation when people accuse other people of harboring beliefs that they don't explicitly state. The conversation has to deal with either explicit statements or explicit actions. If you don't have either of those, it's pure conjecture.

    You can tell a lot about the validity of Zionist positions by the way they carry on (or don't) conversations. There's always a long list of forbidden topics. For instance here where Zionists are whining about problems with even talking about the issue. In negotiations & in the media + Western politics, the issue of Israel's legitimacy is absolutely forbidden, while at the same time it is the core issue for virtually everybody in the region.

    There's also a barrage ad hominem attacks, you know "Muslims are maniacs," "Arabs are animals," etc. Which would also be red herrings even if they were true. Other red herrings include things like the holocaust, and "Jews only want a small part of the Middle East."

    It's very difficult to carry on conversations with Zionists because of all the antics they pull. RPF is actually one of the few places I've seen anything coming close to a serious conversation on the issue where both sides of the issue are represented & people feel free to bring up otherwise forbidden topics. It's actually quite amazing when you think about it.

  12. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    RT Special Interview with Ron Paul:

    http://rt.com/politics/interview-wit...ul-2008-11-27/
    Seriously though, Danno, that doesn't change the fact that RT IS owned and run by the Russian government. They do have an agenda, just like our own media, so we need to not just blindly accept whatever they say.
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  13. #222

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    I haven't really done enough research to know if the Iran thing is true or not, but if Iran is arming the Palestinians, is there a reason they would only give them crappy unguided rockets with a high trajectory that are easily shot down by the existing defenses? Surely Iran is capable of making something more effective, like a cheap guided cruise missile. They wouldn't need to smuggle nearly as many in that case, and it would have far more effect.

    And what about miniature surface-to-air missile launchers like the Stingers we gave to the Afghans so they could attack Soviet aircraft in Afghanistan? Seems like that would be far easier to smuggle in than huge unguided rockets, and infinitely more useful to the Palestinians in their current situation.

    If Iran is actually doing this, is there some reason why they would take the risk of bringing destruction on themselves by sneaking weapons into Gaza, only to give them something totally ineffective?
    "Truth will win in the end. We just don't know when the end is. So we have to persevere." ― Carol Paul


  14. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by JK/SEA View Post
    i don't believe the human shield story. May as well say Israel does the same thing.
    Israel absolutely does the same thing, in that they use Palestinian children as human shields.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

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  15. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    Well, it's from The Blaze. Take it for what it's worth.



    Iranian Arms Ship Bound for Gaza Reportedly Carrying Long-Range Rockets Able to Reach Tel Aviv, Jerusalem

    http ://www.theblaze.com/stories/iranian-arms-ship-bound-for-gaza-found-carrying-long-rage-rockets-able-to-reach-tel-aviv-jerusalem/
    Half the media says this isn't true. Based on the American's history of making up WMD and yellow cake operations, I'm inclined to call bullshit.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  16. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Half the media says this isn't true. Based on the American's history of making up WMD and yellow cake operations, I'm inclined to call bullshit.
    I can't imagine it's true, either.

    It's being reported that a cease fire will commence at 2200 Zulu. Crossing my fingers.

    http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-ceasefire-egypt-177/
    Last edited by RockEnds; 11-20-2012 at 10:38 AM.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  17. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Good find. Thank God for Wikileaks

    The rocket fire did indeed occur immediately before the assault, but it was in response to Israel’s breaking of the six-month cease-fire, which even Israeli officials in WikiLeaks cables admitted Hamas had kept to.
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  18. #227

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    I'm trying to find it but a few in this thread have said that the "jews" in Israel are not true jewish people. can someone explain that?
    Are you sayingthere are no real ethnic Jews left or that they just dont live in Israel?
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  19. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by ApathyCured View Post
    I'm trying to find it but a few in this thread have said that the "jews" in Israel are not true jewish people. can someone explain that?
    Are you sayingthere are no real ethnic Jews left or that they just dont live in Israel?
    I'm not sure what other people said, but I mentioned this book.

    http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/

    Shlomo Sand’s claim is that there has historically never been a such thing as a Jewish "nation." Judaism, he claims, is a religion and shouldn't be viewed as something that merits a state of its own. In that respect probably most immigrants to Israel aren't practicing Jews and are merely linked to Judaism via some sort of vague genetics.

    There are also claims that lots of Russian immigrants in particular aren't Jewish. They just claim it to get out of Russia and move to Israel with lots of perks.

    For instance here's something talking about it.

    http://www.thejerusalemconnection.us...wish-jews.html

  20. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expatriate View Post
    I haven't really done enough research to know if the Iran thing is true or not, but if Iran is arming the Palestinians, is there a reason they would only give them crappy unguided rockets with a high trajectory that are easily shot down by the existing defenses? Surely Iran is capable of making something more effective, like a cheap guided cruise missile. They wouldn't need to smuggle nearly as many in that case, and it would have far more effect.

    And what about miniature surface-to-air missile launchers like the Stingers we gave to the Afghans so they could attack Soviet aircraft in Afghanistan? Seems like that would be far easier to smuggle in than huge unguided rockets, and infinitely more useful to the Palestinians in their current situation.

    If Iran is actually doing this, is there some reason why they would take the risk of bringing destruction on themselves by sneaking weapons into Gaza, only to give them something totally ineffective?
    It doesn't make sense at all. The only possible reason (that I can think of) Iran might given them crappy rockets, rather than cruise missiles is that if Hamas actually had a successful strike, Israel would flatten Gaza (even more.)

    Perhaps it's actually an Egyptian group, they have easy access to the smuggling tunnels--who knows? We won't get the truth here, everything will be blamed on Iran.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  21. #230

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    I would like to pose a question to everyone here who is pro Hamas, what in your opinion should the solution be with Israel and the Palestinians?
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  22. #231

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    It's a small miracle that anything ever makes it into Gaza. Here's the wiki on what is and is not allowed in:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_a...port_into_Gaza

    Can you imagine living like that?
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  23. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    You make it sound sinister, but it's no different from what many people did during WWII--save, hide and support Jews. Why wouldn't I do the same for Palestinians/Muslims?
    because it's unAmerican to get involved in wars we didn't start?

  24. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    because it's unAmerican to get involved in wars we didn't start?
    Which ones were that?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
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  25. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    because it's unAmerican to get involved in wars we didn't start?
    We've been involved directly and indirectly since 1948.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  26. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    We've been involved directly and indirectly since 1948.
    We have been directly involved since the early 1900s.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  27. #236

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    Israelis are dropping leaflets. Ground incursion looks likely.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...2#.UKvspIe1XRU
    ...but when the trumpets blew again and the knights charged, the name they cried was "Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!"

  28. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsetsefly View Post
    I would like to pose a question to everyone here who is pro Hamas, what in your opinion should the solution be with Israel and the Palestinians?
    Either Israel will kill between 200-300 million Arabs,Persians and Christians in the region or they will leave as they came.Nothing else will end the war that in the end the Arabs will win.The USA will not be able to sponsor their military forever and when the money stops coming it will be a battle of attrition.

    Israel has no friends except the USA and a lot of enemies.
    Last edited by Demigod; 11-20-2012 at 02:54 PM.

  29. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    We have been directly involved since the early 1900s.
    Yeah. Didn't want to go that far back if I was questioned on it though because I don't have a good enough internet connection to pull up all the sources to prove it. I know enough off the top of my head to prove our involvement from 1948 on...
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  30. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by androidappme View Post
    The Russian government has propaganda objectives. Talking against Big Government and Oligarchy and Fascism and Socialism and Communism and watching RT or Al Jazeera sounds weird.
    When it comes to exposing America, would you trust America's government run media, or a third-party's government run media?

  31. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by COpatriot View Post
    Israelis are dropping leaflets. Ground incursion looks likely.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...2#.UKvspIe1XRU

    Sounds like the rhetoric before Auschwitz.
    To the people Sheik Ahjleen, Tel El Hawar, South of Rimal, Zaytoun area, Shajiah Toroukman and New Shajiah - the IDF is not targeting you, we do not want to harm your families.
    For your safety you are requested to evacuate your houses immediately and move towards Gaza City Centre through the following routes:
    - Cairo street
    - Arabic countries university
    - Al Aqsa street
    - Um il Laymoun street
    - Salahaddin
    - Al Mansura street
    - Baghdad street
    Once you are in Gaza City you should stay west of Salahaddin, north of Omar Muktar Streets, East of Al Nasser street and south of Al Quds street.
    This fight is temporary and the end of it you will all return to your homes.
    By following these orders you will not be harmed.
    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/k2siil

    Last edited by presence; 11-20-2012 at 06:04 PM.
    It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen
    to set brush fires in peoples minds! Revolution is Action upon Revelation!

    The small green parakeet, Tito, was flung helplessly from the cage, landing on the floor. When a girl screamed, the officer sneerd:
    "F*** THE BIRD !!!"
    ...and stomped on it with his jackboot. READ MORE: http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/n...lugo-parakeet/


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