Here's what that Fuckwad Asshole Gary Bauer has tweeted:
The latest GAZA casualties: WARNING, Very Graphic
Here's what that Fuckwad Asshole Gary Bauer has tweeted:
The latest GAZA casualties: WARNING, Very Graphic
The American Dream, Wake Up People, This is our country! <===click
"All eyes are opened, or opening to the rights of man, let the annual return of this day(July 4th), forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them."
Thomas Jefferson June 1826
Rock The World!
For starters, we have to dispense with all normative arguments at this point because they are irrelevant in the context of this circumstance where the Arab/Muslim world stands to bring the rest of the world to nuclear war. Make no mistake in failing to take this seriously because if an existential threat arises against Israel, they will have NOTHING to lose by loosing their weapons. When that happens, we can all kiss lives even remotely worth living a fond adios.
And before you label me as some "jew-loving kisser of Israel's ass", I assure you I am anything but that. At this very moment, pragmatism is actually our friend, painful as that may be to accept. I daresay that not a single one of us understands with any minimal sufficiency the forces working here at the deepest effective levels of material power. I suspect that they are the same powers that lead to Israel's establishment in the first place. Are those powers orchestrating all of this, or did the situation get away from them? Are they the puppeteers pulling various strings to get the players to do as they would have them, or are they now crapping huge loads in their pants as their creations turn against them? I cannot say and I suspect neither can anyone else here. Therefore, we can only deal with what we have before us. If perchance the ring-masters are still in sufficiently full control, then we have no reason to fret because if their power is indeed that complete, then I suspect there is nothing any of is can do except sit back and wait to see how this situation resolves itself.
Forget whether the Israelis "belong" there, whether they are good or evil people... none of this matters. The Israelis are FACT and I doubt they will go away without the craziest fight-per-pound anyone has ever witnessed - and yes, I mean nukes. I do question why they have tolerated Palestinian presence in "their" territory at all. Is it because they are tolerant people attempting to be fair? Is it due to international pressure to be tolerant? Or is there a deeper strategy at work? We do not know and once again it is irrelevant from the standpoint of whether this is going to get out of hand on a global basis.
However, one point that is of value in assessing this situation is to realize that the Arabs are not the only religious fanatics involved. Beneath the veneer of rationality lies a core of religious beliefs that drive the Israelis, collectively speaking. God chose them as his people and nobody else. God gave the "holy land" to them and to nobody else. This is what they BELIEVE and in principle it closely mirrors the mindset of the Muslims, differing only in details but not in nature.
In other words, what we have here is a religious war with a political face painted upon it. These are the basic truths.
Now, am I mistaken in my understanding that Hamas started lobbing rockets into Israel? If so, why? If this the case, then pray tell us what do you believe the Israeli response should be? We are speaking of Muslims here - people who, statistically taken, respect but one thing: strength. They despise weakness and when the see it they endeavor to destroy it. That is what they DO. Any smoochie-smoochie, lets-be-friends response by Israel will only make the Palestinians want to hurt them all the more. Again this is a RELIGIOUS war and on top of that it is a war of deeply clashing cultures. The likelihood that there is a political solution to the disagreements in question approaches zero.
Therefore, Israel is faced with a very practical choice: fight or be consumed. I suppose they could all pack their bags and move to NJ, but they will not do that. And even if we grant for argument's sake that the Jews of Europe had no right to go to live in Palestine (an assumption that would violate just about every principle of liberty some of us claim to hold dear), they now have at least a third generation who have been born there and know no other home. If the Arabs "kick them out", to what place shall they go where they would not be likewise unwelcome and having to start all over again?
I am the first to acknowledge the significant fuck-ups of the Israeli government, but the "Palestinians" are no babes in the woods either. There is plenty of blame to go around there.
Were YOU king of Israel, how would YOU resolve this, knowing what the realities are WRT the threats looming at your borders? Would you just roll over and die? What endlessly clever thing would you pull out of your hat to save the day for all time such that the Arabs would "come to their senses" and molest your people no more? Is there anything? Or would you endeavor to slaughter the bastards until such time as they got it straight for another generation or so that you mean business and will not be tread upon? These are serious questions and if you cannot answer them, then I suggest that your railing against Israel has not legitimate basis. I am not taking their side against the Arabs - but I am looking at the situation from a practical point of view on the part of the Israelis. Each side has screwed things up. The Arabs told the Jews the piss-off after '45. If freedom - real freedom - is in fact the proper underlying principle of all human relations, then what just cause did they have for denying entry and settlement? So perhaps it was the Arabs who fired the first shots in this decades-long conflict. Why are the Israelis always the bad guys? I have known several and still do and all they want is to not get blowed up real good when they go to the market.
I understand there are elements at work there that are fanatical - the lubavitchers and their religious mania. On that point I agree with you and others in questioning where are the rest of the people? But you also have to take into consideration that those people are shit-scared. I would also point out that any significant internal conflict would doom Israel to destruction. So the average Moishe is faced with the choice of tolerating the jerks who have seized power or risk annihilation by going out and protesting en-masse. Mr. Rock, meet Mr. Hardplace.
Given that the Muslim states openly hostile to Israel run from just this side of Turkey to the west coast of Africa, covering what I would imagine must be at least one million square miles, I see no reason to begrudge the Israelis just over 7K squares of sand. This whole deal is dangerously childish and I for one am in no humor for those Muslim assholes to provoke a nuclear exchange with their Israeli counterparts. This is NOT just about them. It is about all of us. If Israel nukes Syria, for example, what exactly do you suppose the Russian response might be? I doubt they will give them hugs and kisses after their people in Damascus become French fries. How about China? Pakistan is so fucking unstable in some ways, one may only hazard a guess as to what they might do.
This is a powder keg and the imbeciles Arabs with their imbecile messianic jihadist bullshit stand to get us all fracked because it should be born in mind that we do not have to have a hydrogen bomb fall on Manhattan to be sufficiently screwed. Fallout would be everywhere and it will be loads because I am quite confident in my belief that Israel would employ ground bursts rather than air as they do the most damage and produce the most fallout.
So once again: what is your practical solution to this situation?
Last edited by osan; 11-20-2012 at 06:05 AM.
ignominia et contemptum tyrannis
Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me
The affairs of gold-laden Gyges do not interest me.
Zealousy of the gods has never seized me nor anger
at their deeds. But I have no love for great tyranny
for its deeds are very far from my eyes. -Archilochus
Secondly Israel didn't build a damn thing up, Israel was surviving off reparations from Germany the first half of it's existence, give me a bunch of free money and I'll turn where I live into a Utopia -- besides, it wasn't "dunes", you clearly have a very VERY poor knowledge of geography if you think the Levant is full of sand dunes, what do you think it's the Sahara? Yes Israel made the land more fertile, know how? Stealing water from neighboring countries, look at the Golan Heights!
Hamas, and Palestinians did not attack first -- by definition NO Palestinian could have attacked an Israeli first, Israel will always be the aggressor, Israel is MURDERING their elected officials, and you're sitting there saying, heh, too bad, don't attack back. Sure if they attack back civilians die since Israel hits them harder, but if they didn't attack back at all, Israel would wipe them out entirely -- there's a reason Americans REFUSE to give up their second amendment right to bear arms. If they did so, it's very possible the tyrannical U.S. government would oppress Americans even more, now that they're disarmed, or if a foreign enemy came they would be powerless to defend their land and families. But you're suggesting the Palestinian people just bow their heads to the Israelis, hand over their weapons and allow Israel to do with them as they please.
Lastly, this point drives me nuts. The Hebrew people and the Arab people are inter-related, we are Semitic, the Hebrews largely assimilated with the Arabs, as the Arabs influence became more prominent, the Jews were NEVER kicked out of Palestine by Arabs/Muslims, therefore it's not like they were there, we Arabs kicked em out, n now they want back in -- no they European Jews, are not Semitic Jews, Hebrew as a language was nearly extinct until they revived it -- they are NOT Semitic, the original people living there are, they have NO right to the land whatsoever.
“I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
“Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹
Israel wanted the land, and they got it. Maybe they didn't think it through. I dunno. All I know is that I don't want their problem to be my problem. I don't like the idea of being the policemen of the world. I am most definitely against the idea of being drawn into WWIII.
In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.
It's impossible to carry on a conversation when people accuse other people of harboring beliefs that they don't explicitly state. The conversation has to deal with either explicit statements or explicit actions. If you don't have either of those, it's pure conjecture.I suspect most Ron Paul supporters are either pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist, or at the very least, equal opportunity non-interventionist, isolationist. But I suspect lurking between them are some that are happy to intervene for Palestine.
You can tell a lot about the validity of Zionist positions by the way they carry on (or don't) conversations. There's always a long list of forbidden topics. For instance here where Zionists are whining about problems with even talking about the issue. In negotiations & in the media + Western politics, the issue of Israel's legitimacy is absolutely forbidden, while at the same time it is the core issue for virtually everybody in the region.
There's also a barrage ad hominem attacks, you know "Muslims are maniacs," "Arabs are animals," etc. Which would also be red herrings even if they were true. Other red herrings include things like the holocaust, and "Jews only want a small part of the Middle East."
It's very difficult to carry on conversations with Zionists because of all the antics they pull. RPF is actually one of the few places I've seen anything coming close to a serious conversation on the issue where both sides of the issue are represented & people feel free to bring up otherwise forbidden topics. It's actually quite amazing when you think about it.