Gaza under attack by Israel

[mport1]

Can somebody please summarize the history between Israel and the Palestinians for me? I don't have the time to research it in depth and cut through all the propaganda from both sides.

My intuition tells me that Israel is the aggressor and the worse of the two evils. Antiwar.com seems to present this narrative as well. So, what is really going on with the whole situation?

[Orgoonian]

Start at about 2:45









Anti Semite = Pro Israel

[MelissaWV]

Pretty dumb to declare open war against someone 100x stronger than you.

BRB challenging Mike Tyson to a boxing match, crying when I lose saying its unfair.

If Mike Tyson killed your mom after your uncle had killed Mike Tyson's pet tiger who had in turn previously maimed your cousin's friend who had previously worn a tiger-skin coat that had once belonged to Mike Tyon's manager but had to be sold at auction because the manager was in debt to your sister... then it'd be more like this.

I had to actually explain to my mom that Hamas did not just wake up and decide to fire rockets at Israel.

[furface]

The original "anti-semites" used the term to label themselves. It was a pseudo-scientific term they invented to basically lump Jews together racially with Arabs, a supreme insult in anti-Arab, anti-Muslim Europe.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...lhelmMarr.html

Marr’s conception of antisemitism focused on the supposed racial, as opposed to religious, characteristics of the Jews. His organization, the League of Antisemites, introduced the word “antisemite” into the political lexicon and established the first popular political movement based entirely on anti-Jewish beliefs.

The driving force historically for "anti-semitism" is European hatred of North Africans & Middle Easterners. For instance Gypsies were ethnically cleansed during WWII and are still suffering profoundly from racism in Europe. The term "Gypsy" comes from falsely equating them to EGYPtians.

There are many theories about the driving force for the Nazi holocaust, however there is little evidence that it came from systemic cultural Jew hatred in Germany. Hitler appeared to have a personal pathological hatred of Jews which appeared to have been turned into government policy in the later part of WWII. Nazi Germany, being like all modern Western "democracies," was susceptible to the whims and stupidity of individual leaders, with disastrous consequences to millions of innocent people, a policy problem that is still going on today with virtually all Western "democracies."

Of course the correlation between the holocaust & attacking Palestine is a connection born in only the most viscous and pathological of world views. There are lots of ugly things driving the current situation in the Middle East. A few stray Muslim blow back practitioners certainly aren't the primary driving forces.

[presence]

Can somebody please summarize the history between Israel and the Palestinians for me? I don't have the time to research it in depth and cut through all the propaganda from both sides.

Jews believe in a spiritual place called Israel that God gives to the righteous. Jews get gassed by million in WWII... UN gives Zionists most of Palestine and names it "Israel". Only Jews have rights in this newly created land. Non jews say WTF we've been here for generations? They go to war. Lose. Zionist Israel occupies the rest of Palestine (gaza/west bank) and imposes themselves on this occupied land w/ illegal settlements. UN says its fucked... but lets it slide. US finances it all. Muslims throw rocks and mortars at the illegal settlements... occasionally into Israel proper. Few injuries... but persistent petty rock and mortar attacks on what was once theirs. Israel tends to bomb the shit out of them and bulldoze any trace.

This is generally the face of israel:




And this is the face of palestine:




You've got a running average of about 10 Palestinian children killed per Israeli child for the past 2-3 decades.

do your own research, this is a good start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...inian_conflict

I tend to take the anti-Israel stance.

From those 3 videos above... the last one; Jimmy C from 2:20 - 2:40 is my bottom line on the whole situation.

[COpatriot]

[Traditional Conservative]

I tend to take the anti-Israel stance.

I never could've guessed.

[UWDude]

Can somebody please summarize the history between Israel and the Palestinians for me? I don't have the time to research it in depth and cut through all the propaganda from both sides.

My intuition tells me that Israel is the aggressor and the worse of the two evils. Antiwar.com seems to present this narrative as well. So, what is really going on with the whole situation?

In the 1800's nationalism and socialism were on the rise as ideas. (Germany did not become a nation until 1871).
Jewish intellectuals, like so many other nationalities, began to define what makes a Jew a Jew, (like Serbs, Germans, Ukrianians, etc were doing.)
The came zionism, in the 1890's founded by Thedor Herzl, and the hope for a homeland.
The idea was to buy a bunch of land somewhere, and create a socialist or communist state: New York, Argentina (who was actively recruiting Europeans in attempts to modernize) or Israel.

At the time, palestine was owned by the crumbling and distant Ottoman empire, and there were no states so to speak of in the region.
After WW I, the Ottoman Empire vanished, and the Brits got the area known as Palestine.
The Brits tried to limit the influx of Jewish settlers between the wars, but failed, and militant anti-Brit, (Brits were seen as pro-arab) organizations were formed, like Irgun and Hergannah. After the holocaust, these organizations became as extremist as you would expect a people who lost 6 million of their own would, and started a bombing/terror campaign against Brits and Arabs.

Brits didn't want to deal with it. And in 1947, they went to the UN, and proposed a two state settlement. Zionists had bought 6% of the land, had 31% of the population,. but were given 48% of the land, and Arabs, the other 52%. America, under Truman, was the first to say OK, and many nations followed. Israel became a state. Within a week, the Arab states surrounding Israel invaded, on behalf of the Palestinians, because they wanted to get rid of the Palestinian immigrant problem, and for their own personal ambitions. (most of these states were brand new post-colonial monarchies propped up by Britain and France).

They surely could have won, except that they had no coordination, and no common goal. Jordan was the most successful of the war, but after seizing the west bank and part of Jerusalem, stopped, the King happy with his gains. The paramilitary groups in Israel slaughtered Palestinians, and many fled the country. Zionist narrative says the Palestinians fled because they thought victory was near, Palestinian narrative says they fled because they feared for their lives. End result was all who fled were not allowed back in, and their homes, farms and plantations were seized and given to Jews.

In 1976, The Arab states again decided to go to war with Israel, under Egypt's Nasser, who was hoping to form a pan-Arabic state, and because all of the nations around Israel were sick of supporting and dealing with Palestinian refugees, who were starting to cause violence in their new host countries. At this time, the Arab world was westernizing. Women wore miniskirts and beehives, western music, everything. The Arabs were sure they would win, because their cause was just. But they were defeated handily. Israel took the West Bank, Gaza, the Sinai, and the Golan Heights. Only the Sinai was returned after 1982.

This is when Islamist fundamentalism really took of, and gained hold in popular culture. Arabs felt they had lost because they were sinful, and no longer following the teachings of Islam.

Since 1976, Israel has been slowly seizing lands in the west bank, and the Golan heights, and turning them into state-sponsored settlements for Jews only. Palestinian groups have been committing bombing/terrorist campaign and demanding everything from the destruction of Israel, to the right of return (Palestinians are not allowed to immigrate to Israel, as Israel is a Jewish state, and does not want to be outnumbered by Arabs) to their own state.

[klamath]

I think RP forums does great harm in reinforcing racist stereotypes people have of RP's ideas by always wading full on into debating who is right and whole is wrong in a conflicts in the world, we should just wipe our hands of.
I have long heard the argument that we have to take sides because israel has undue influence on the US foreign policy. They do, however I will argue the the british actually have Far far more influence than the Israelis. They have actually dragged us into huge wars. The British have actually invaded 90% of the nations of the world. Many of the problems in the middle east are the result the country boundries draw by the British including israel and palestine however I am not seeing long threads on the british.
The british can do what the british can do but I just want the US to stay out of wars other nations get themselves into.
I want our country to mind our own business including people on these forums.
If people truely believed in RP they should note RP would not even vote for a resolution condeming other countries obvious atrocities. Why? Because he believes that even chosing sides with no actual physical support was interfering in other nations.

[MelissaWV]

I think RP forums does great harm in reinforcing racist stereotypes people have of RP's ideas by always wading full on into debating who is right and whole is wrong in a conflicts in the world, we should just wipe our hands of. I have long heard the argument that we have to take sides because israel has undue influence on the US foreign policy. They do, however I will argue the the british actually have Far far more influence than the Israelis. They have actually dragged us into huge wars. The British have actually invaded 90% of the nations of the world. Many of the problems in the middle east are the result the country boundries draw by the British including israel and palestine however I am not seeing long threads on the british.
The british can do what the british can do but I just want the US to stay out of wars other nations get themselves into.
I want our country to mind our own business including people on these forums.
If people truely believed in RP they should note RP would not even vote for a resolution condeming other countries obvious atrocities. Why? Because he believes that even chosing sides with no actual physical support was interfering in other nations.

And if someone got that impression, I would ask them to reread the thread and look to see precisely how many people have taken a side. Of those, how many are advocating some sort of action on the United States' part? You can still take a personal side on something, and not want to legislate it. Ron Paul does that on a large number of issues.