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Thread: Can we stop saying Republicans lost because of social issues.

  1. #1

    Default Can we stop saying Republicans lost because of social issues.

    I keep seeing this everywhere "Republicans have to change their views on social issues if they want to win in the future" - this is BS. Do people really think this is why Romney lost? Yes, ofcourse, those two clowns who made the "rape" comments (which I believe were taken out of context and blown way out of proportion, but nevertheless poor choice of words) sunk their bids, but Romney did not lose because of gays and abortion.

    Obama could hardly call this a victory, it was a suckfest and Obama barely eeked out a win, but to say social issues were the deciding factor is just nonsense. Romney lost because no one liked him, he was a flip-flopper who gave people no clear alternative to what Obama was offering. The thing conservatives need to work on, is making it easier for people to understand free markets and how they help the poor instead of hurt them. It's very easy for the Dems to get up there and promise free stuff and that seems on the surface to be "compassionate" whereas giving businesses tax breaks and price gouging in hurricanes seems cruel to those who aren't educated on these things.

    The last thing we need is get bogged down in confusing disucssions on gays and abortion, those who make those issues a deal breaker are likely hardcore Dems or Repubs anyhow who would never vote for the other side in the first place, most others just don't want those issues to be major parts of anyone's campaigns, just say you are socially conservative if asked, then move on.
    Last edited by Butchie; 11-13-2012 at 06:54 AM.
    Golden Rule? Booooo. Go back to Texas!



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  3. #2

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    Social issue is a big turn off. I have a lot of friend among immigrants that came from USSR. They hate communism and democrats. But social issues make them not vote republicans either.

    I keep explaining them, that is just words, ignore that. But it does irritate them a lot.

  4. #3

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    The problem is that when the topic is switched to social issues, republicans turn into progressives. Meaning, they want the government to force the people to behave how they want them to behave.

    This is why the democratic machine kept changing the economic discussion to social issues. Because it makes republicans look stupid. And make no mistake, once you look stupid, it's very hard to get people to accept that you are only stupid about social issues. They tend to believe you are just stupid.

    So while I agree with you that it wasn't just social issues, the ability of democrats to burn republicans with them is real. Not to mention the fact that scare tactics on social issues turns out the democratic vote like magic.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  5. #4

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    You know, the rhetoric was pretty hard core this year. Yes, there are people who will not budge one way or the other on abortion and other social issues. Those people are not swing voters. But the debate really got out of hand this time. Frankly, women are a sizable voting block, and when the GOP aligns itself with people who wish to legislate morality and view women as breeders, you'll find the female vote will largely reject the guy at the top of the ticket. In fact, you'll find that some women who have made the decision to birth, love, and raise a child conceived in rape will reject the dogma at the voting booth. Spin it any way you want, but women were pissed off this cycle. It's a fact. Granted, Romney had much more trouble than just that, but the hard core theocratic rhetoric from portions of the GOP did not help.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  6. #5

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    there are many reasons why i did not like romney , the biggest were --not putting out at least 5 yrs of tax returns --putting 10's of millions of $$$$ in overseas banks --bain capital .

    all of which are legal and if i had the money i would put money overseas in case the shtf here.

    but not running for potus.

  7. #6
    Member Keith and stuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butchie View Post
    Obama could hardly call this a victory, it was a suckfest and Obama barely eeked out a win...
    That's not how I see it. Obama won in all but 1 of the swing states up for grabs. Who knows, depending on how Obama allocated resources, he might have been able to pull off victories in that state, NC, and even GA. Obama beat Romney by a good amount.

    As for the social issues, it depends on the state. NH is nearly the most socially liberal state in the US. It is 1 of the more fiscally conservative states, though. Obama destroyed Romney in ground game here. Even Planned Parenthood visited many house in the populated areas near Manchester talking about how Republicans would try to end abortion. Since the exit poll showed pro-choice to pro-life leaning voters in NH made up 75% to 25% of the electorate, that was a huge deal. Exit polls also showed 65% in favor of government same sex marriage in NH.

    I understand that some Republicans will never change their minds on the abortion issue but Republicans running in the West or Northeast need to realize that there will be a time when pretty much everyone is in favor of government same sex marriage. There used to be a time when most voters were opposed to blacks and whites getting government marriages. Times change. Eventually, voters, even in the South, will overwhelmingly support government same sex marriage.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

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    You can stop saying whatever you want. I will keep pointing out that Republicans that ask for a nanny state on social issues are BIG GOVT fucktards. I don't need Santorum deciding for me if I should be allowed to play cards with other adults.
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    I am a libertarian. I am advocating everyone enjoy maximum freedom on both personal and economic issues as long as they do not bring violence unto others.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    You know, the rhetoric was pretty hard core this year. Yes, there are people who will not budge one way or the other on abortion and other social issues. Those people are not swing voters. But the debate really got out of hand this time. Frankly, women are a sizable voting block, and when the GOP aligns itself with people who wish to legislate morality and view women as breeders, you'll find the female vote will largely reject the guy at the top of the ticket. In fact, you'll find that some women who have made the decision to birth, love, and raise a child conceived in rape will reject the dogma at the voting booth. Spin it any way you want, but women were pissed off this cycle. It's a fact. Granted, Romney had much more trouble than just that, but the hard core theocratic rhetoric from portions of the GOP did not help.
    The Democrats the party that views women as breeders.

    It's insane to think that the GOP should adopt the liberal platforms when we normally bitch because they've done that in the past. Social Seciurity, Medicare/MeedicAid, SCHIP, Prescription drugs, NEA, EPA...the list goes on and on.

    The whole War on Women is the Democrats insisting that we can't survive without them. Break apart the family, put women on the dole, then tell them that nobody loves them like Big Brother. I disgusting, and the women who buy into it are the same type that marry wife beaters and alcoholics.
    Last edited by angelatc; 11-13-2012 at 07:24 AM.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleaner44 View Post
    You can stop saying whatever you want. I will keep pointing out that Republicans that ask for a nanny state on social issues are BIG GOVT fucktards. I don't need Santorum deciding for me if I should be allowed to play cards with other adults.
    Sure, if you're talking about something like gambling or marijuana legalization, you have a point. But Ron, Rand, and other liberty people aren't exactly social liberals when they oppose abortion rights and support the defense of marriage act.
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Romans 8: 18-21

    I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

  11. #10

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    "Can we stop saying Republicans lost because of social issues?"


    To be honest, I am amazed at the number of people who keep on saying this.

    1) It is extremely simplistic. There are a lot of reasons that Mitt Romney lost.

    2) Romney was never a real social conservative. Remember " I believe that abortion should be safe and legal"?

    3) The Republicans did not have a particularly bad election. The Presidential election was just one election on November 6th. It was focused on the candidate as much as his party - and, as such, had as much to do with his personality as with the policies associated with his party.

    A much better test of the popularity of the party as a whole is to look at the elections to the House of Representatives. The Republicans won 234 races, the Democrats won 197. In other words, the Republicans did not do as well as they did in 2010, but they did better than they did in 2008, 2006, 2002, 2000, 1998, 1996, 1994, 1992, 1990, 1988, 1986, 1984, etc. etc. etc. Not that you would guess that from listening to the pundits.


    Anyone who is saying that the Republican Party had a terrible election this year is simply ignorant.

    And almost all the people attributing this mythical electoral disaster to social issues are (surprise, surprise) people who are hostile to social conservativism.
    "Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue." - John Adams

    "He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind." - John Witherspoon

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    The Democrats the party that views women as breeders.

    It's insane to think that the GOP should adopt the liberal platforms when we normally bitch because they've done that in the past. Social Seciurity, Medicare/MeedicAid, SCHIP, Prescription drugs, NEA, EPA...the list goes on and on.
    Well, the democrats demonized children conceived in rape. According to their rhetoric, all women should unilaterally despise any child conceived under such circumstances. I don't think the GOP even noticed. They could have played on that.

    Personally, I don't see anything either liberal or conservative about sticking one's business in another's uterus.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  13. #12

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    The GOP needs to come up with a better response to the Dem's "my faith makes me personally opposed to abortion, but I don't want to impose my views on others".

    Many years ago I saw a video that was a debate on abortion. The pro-abortion speaker (a woman) was at the podium using the argument I stated above, the pro-life guy got up out of his chair went over to the woman's chair and took her bag, brought it back to his chair and started rifling through it. The woman saw what he was doing, was flustered and said "what are you doing". He replied, "I took your bag". She said "you cannot take my bag, that's wrong" (she played right into his hand). He replied "well maybe your faith tells you that theft is wrong, but who are you to impose your views on me".

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
    And almost all the people attributing this mythical electoral disaster to social issues are (surprise, surprise) people who are hostile to social conservativism.
    There's a big difference between social conservatism and having the government dictate social conservatism. The first is real conservatism, the second is progressivism for a different cause.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    The Democrats the party that views women as breeders.

    It's insane to think that the GOP should adopt the liberal platforms when we normally bitch because they've done that in the past. Social Seciurity, Medicare/MeedicAid, SCHIP, Prescription drugs, NEA, EPA...the list goes on and on.

    The whole War on Women is the Democrats insisting that we can't survive without them. Break apart the family, put women on the dole, then tell them that nobody loves them like Big Brother. I disgusting, and the women who buy into it are the same type that marry wife beaters and alcoholics.
    Goodness, thank you Angel. I was starting to think I was on a progressive website here for a moment. Someone please explain to me how Republicans were trying to legislate morality this election? Because they don't want their tax dollars paying for birth control and abortions? I always love how people just act as tho oppossing abortion is legislating morality, if life begins at conception then standing up for the rights of that child is essential for anyone who believes in liberty, obviously, if you believe life does not begin at conception your view is different, but that is the issue, where does life begin.
    Golden Rule? Booooo. Go back to Texas!

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    There's a big difference between social conservatism and having the government dictate social conservatism. The first is real conservatism, the second is progressivism for a different cause.
    You are completely correct.

    And while almost all the people attributing this mythical electoral disaster to social issues are people who are hostile to social conservativism - I will readily admit that there are a small number of people who attribute this mythical electoral disaster to social issues who are not hostile to social conservativism, but who are hostile to the government dictating social conservativism.
    Last edited by JohnM; 11-13-2012 at 07:41 AM.
    "Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue." - John Adams

    "He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind." - John Witherspoon

  17. #16

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    Can we say Republicans lost because half the country right now knows someone who has been unjustly jailed due to some draconian policy the GOP adheres to like it's the heart and soul of the party?
    “If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

    - SAMUEL ADAMS

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butchie View Post
    Goodness, thank you Angel. I was starting to think I was on a progressive website here for a moment. Someone please explain to me how Republicans were trying to legislate morality this election? Because they don't want their tax dollars paying for birth control and abortions? I always love how people just act as tho oppossing abortion is legislating morality, if life begins at conception then standing up for the rights of that child is essential for anyone who believes in liberty, obviously, if you believe life does not begin at conception your view is different, but that is the issue, where does life begin.
    You made the assertion that social issues had nothing to do with the election results. You didn't ask for a critique on whether it was right or wrong.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butchie View Post
    Goodness, thank you Angel. I was starting to think I was on a progressive website here for a moment. Someone please explain to me how Republicans were trying to legislate morality this election? Because they don't want their tax dollars paying for birth control and abortions? I always love how people just act as tho oppossing abortion is legislating morality, if life begins at conception then standing up for the rights of that child is essential for anyone who believes in liberty, obviously, if you believe life does not begin at conception your view is different, but that is the issue, where does life begin.
    Not to mention that that the Republicans are NEVER going to overturn Roe v Wade. They had to fight like heck to bet partial birth abortion banned, and they had a strong majority then. And the President doesn't get to make that call regardless. That was a SCOTUS decision. It's not like they're out there trying to amend the constitution (God knows that would be too much like work work!)

    The Democrats are insisting that we purge social issues from our platform, while they win on social issues. They tell us the TEA party is too far right, while they purge their pro-life and pro-gun members in favor of appointing socialist progressives to their empty chairs.

    They're playing chess while accusing the GOP of losing at checkers.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    You made the assertion that social issues had nothing to do with the election results. You didn't ask for a critique on whether it was right or wrong.
    This election, as well as the last election, had less turnout than Bush v Kerry. This despite a bigger population of registered voters. Losing elections is more about the fact that the GOP has morphed into the DNC of the 60's, and conservatives just aren't driven to even make an effort to support them.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    You made the assertion that social issues had nothing to do with the election results. You didn't ask for a critique on whether it was right or wrong.
    Absolutely right, but when people came back at me with quotes about how the GOP was trying to legislate morality they were clearly making a statement on right and wrong whether I asked for it or not.
    Last edited by Butchie; 11-13-2012 at 08:07 AM.
    Golden Rule? Booooo. Go back to Texas!

  22. #21

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    The bottom line is that President Obama won re-election because 50% of the American people approved of his job performance on election day. That's the percentage of the vote he received nation wide. 50% of the American people support adding 6 trillion dollars in debt, starting additional wars, locking up Americans without giving them a trial, increasing regulations on American businesses, and giving out free abortion and contraception to anyone who wants it. Like Ron Paul said, our country is far gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Romans 8: 18-21

    I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    This election, as well as the last election, had less turnout than Bush v Kerry. This despite a bigger population of registered voters. Losing elections is more about the fact that the GOP has morphed into the DNC of the 60's, and conservatives just aren't driven to even make an effort to support them.
    I absolutely agree that there were other factors at play, and I stated as much. But man, I am finding myself apologizing to my friends that I'm on the county GOP committee. Some of them are pretty sure that I've sold out the entire gender. To think that social issues did not play any part in the outcome of the election is naive. It did. The Dems supported Obamacare. Romney also supported most of Obamacare, but the GOP was dead set against it including anything associated with female reproduction. They didn't single out gall bladder surgery or diabetes. They singled out birth control.

    I didn't frame debate. I'm just trying to explain why my female friends think the GOP is bonkers.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  24. #23

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    dp
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  25. #24

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    This election, as well as the last election, had less turnout than Bush v Kerry. This despite a bigger population of registered voters. Losing elections is more about the fact that the GOP has morphed into the DNC of the 60's, and conservatives just aren't driven to even make an effort to support them.
    This is so, so true. And it is something that I do not think many people really understand. People throw the term neo-con around way too much, and attach it primarily (if not solely to FP), but it is not just about FP. Turn back the clock to the mid 60's, take the prominent neo-cons of today: McCain, Graham, Kristol, Rove, etc. Guess what party they would have been in? The Democratic Party. Neo-cons are not just war mongers, they are economic moderates (for lack of a better term). The neo-cons left the Dems because the Dems went too far left on their domestic agenda with the Great Society programs of the late 60's. They came to the GOP and set up shop here, siding with the true conservatives who opposed the Great Society expansion of gov't - but they are not conservative in the traditional sense, hence the term neo-con. And today, they are barely indistinguishable from the moderates or former Rockefeller wing of the GOP.

    So to the issue you raised, conservatives, particularly ones who are 40 and above and remember the difference between a real conservative and a neo-con, don't turn out in sizable numbers when the party runs someone like McCain or Romney. Conservatives just can't get fired up over them. Turnout goes down and the GOP suffers losses across the board, which in many cases effects decent people who are down ticket.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockEnds View Post
    You know, the rhetoric was pretty hard core this year. Yes, there are people who will not budge one way or the other on abortion and other social issues. Those people are not swing voters. But the debate really got out of hand this time. Frankly, women are a sizable voting block, and when the GOP aligns itself with people who wish to legislate morality and view women as breeders, you'll find the female vote will largely reject the guy at the top of the ticket. In fact, you'll find that some women who have made the decision to birth, love, and raise a child conceived in rape will reject the dogma at the voting booth. Spin it any way you want, but women were pissed off this cycle. It's a fact. Granted, Romney had much more trouble than just that, but the hard core theocratic rhetoric from portions of the GOP did not help.
    Some where around 50% ehh?

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    The bottom line is that President Obama won re-election because 50% of the American people approved of his job performance on election day. That's the percentage of the vote he received nation wide. 50% of the American people support adding 6 trillion dollars in debt, starting additional wars, locking up Americans without giving them a trial, increasing regulations on American businesses, and giving out free abortion and contraception to anyone who wants it. Like Ron Paul said, our country is far gone.
    That wasn't the choice presented.

    Romney offered the following:

    1. More war
    2. More debt
    3. more torture, detention without trial, tsa gate rape, assassinations
    4. more domestic sureveilance
    5. more crony-capitalism, bailouts, subsidies, etc.
    6. More war on drugs

    Given the above, the question really should be "why would anyone think Romney would do anything OTHER than lose?"
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbauer View Post
    Some where around 50% ehh?
    Yeppers.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butchie View Post
    Goodness, thank you Angel. I was starting to think I was on a progressive website here for a moment. Someone please explain to me how Republicans were trying to legislate morality this election? Because they don't want their tax dollars paying for birth control and abortions? I always love how people just act as tho oppossing abortion is legislating morality, if life begins at conception then standing up for the rights of that child is essential for anyone who believes in liberty, obviously, if you believe life does not begin at conception your view is different, but that is the issue, where does life begin.
    Agree, I think pro-life should be the liberty's view on abortion. All the rest of the social crap....I coudl care less. As long as it doesn't infringe on my ability to pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Go for it.

  31. #30

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    It's not so much the social issues as it is the authoritarian cartoon like impression of the social issues that is being sold and projected by the media, political class, etc. The "war on women" angle was very successful for the Democrats, and...what's worse is that so many mainstream establishment Repulicans sympathize with this theory of class conflict themselves, so they tend to do an exceptionally poor job articulating a defense. Just the other day I had a discussion with a liberal friend about how the 10th amendment works and how state rights would handle compromise on social issues, by letting people decide local laws, and she came away from the discussion agreeing with me! But she has never heard this argument before.
    Last edited by July; 11-13-2012 at 08:52 AM.

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