What is wrong with silver?

[NoOneButPaul]

^^

Cubical did mention he is holding silver in the near term because he sees more short term upside and will convert to gold.

In fact, I am inclined to do the same.

I will sell my silver for RE/gold/service/goods.

Also note, Cubical...that on the side of silver, there are a lot of poor and middle class folk. When it comes time to value their labor in specie, it will be done so in silver, not gold. This is a function of demand. Sell side = using it to buy stuff. Demand side = labor pricing.

2 cents.

When the time comes i'll do the same but the ratio is going to have to close in considerably from 55-1 before I think about doing it. I also think you should ALWAYS hold both.

[Seraphim]

Below 20-1. Agreed.

Quite frankly, I am of the belief it will go below 12-1.

When the time comes i'll do the same but the ratio is going to have to close in considerably from 55-1 before I think about doing it.

[cubical]

1st- No one establishes what money is at the top. Ron Paul talked about this when he flashed his silver ounce in front of Bernanke 9 months ago... money comes in a natural way not by edict or government force. People at the top can claim Gold is money but if the entire globe bought into silver and tipped the scales so that silver was actually worth more than gold (I never expect this to happen this is just a hypothetical argument) then Silver would be money and Gold would be the poor man's silver- no one and no one thing are greater than the Free Market. No one determines what money is, people determine what money is, and 5000 years of economics tells us that BOTH gold and silver are money.

2nd- Silver Manipulation is long past the point of conspiracy, it happens, it's been happening CLEARLY for the last 2 years. If you dismiss this you dismiss it at your own peril. There's an amazing amount of information out there about it, JP Morgan is being investigated for it as we type back and forth, whistleblowers have come out and admitted it. It is going on and it's not a tinfoil hatish position to take. There is also a physical shortage on silver and has been for quite some time now... we now consume silver faster than we can mine it and even the USGS said only a couple of years ago it would be the first element to disappear from the periodic table.

3rd- Silver's price is currently being driven by industrial demand which points to it's gain being even greater. Right now silver is already going up because of the fact its use in industry is increasing AND common people are driving towards it as an inflation hedge. You do not get that double edged sword with gold.

4th- Right now Silver is at about a 55-1 ratio to gold. As little as ten years ago that ratio was 75-1... the ratio continues to get smaller and smaller and will continue to get smaller and smaller. I contend it will hit 16-1 for a number of reasons... 1st... that was the centuries old average prior to the 20th century, 2nd consumers trying to protect themselves against inflation WILL BE FORCED to go to Silver because they cannot afford gold. (As for the smaller amounts... why would you buy 1/10 of OZ of gold for 170$ when you could get 5 OZs of Silver for roughly the same price?)

Furthermore... if Gold hits 55k in purchasing power in the future and the ratio stays exactly the same at 55-1 that means silver should hit 1k in purchasing power.

Which means your silver would go up about 33X what it is today while your gold only goes up at around 31-32X... the gains are still greater in Silver (understandably it's not by much but we're also assuming here that it stays at 55-1- If it went to even 40-1 we're talking 1250$ and much greater gains in Silver overall... if it hits the historic 16-1 ratio at 55k were talking about 3400$ silver and at that point we'd be talking gains of 100X what it is today)

There's much much more potential in silver still.... if the Ratio goes to 16-1 the gains won't even be close with gold... with the ratio staying exactly the same (which I think is a hard assumption to make) then you're still getting a slightly better return with silver overall.

And while i'm certainly not here to make the case AGAINST GOLD (I Love gold, i'll be asking for some for Christmas) i'm trying to say that to dismiss Silver's potential to the point where you're going to start selling it off for ONLY gold is foolish because there's a lot of gains to be made in silver. It's smart to hold both because Gold is much more stable than Silver but the gains in Silver are potentially MUCH greater than gold.

1. Yes, people at the top do establish what money is. The super producers are the ones at the top. If Canda/Russia/Brazil/Saudi Arabia said gold is money(super producer is relative and can be countries or individuals/families with large wealth), but Africa disagreed and only used silver, who's "money" would you desire to have? Africa is poor and minimal producers, which is the opposite of Canada, China etc

2. If physical silver was manipulated, why can I go to gainesville coins right now and buy as much physical silver as my heart desires? Actual "shortages" in anything is rare, rather only higher prices. btw there is never a universale shortage of money(ie medium of exchange/store of value)

3. What gives silver most of it's value is the exact opposite of what gives gold it's value. Why would you want your money as a commodity that will be consumed in the future? You believe copper, nickel, wood, oil are money as well?

4. Yes, I know the GSR hs been all over the place in the past, but why do you pick 16-1? Why is that correct? I will answer your question with another question. Why buy 5oz of silver, when you can buy 200oz of nickel? Point being, volume is meaningless and in fact it would be easier to have to use as little as possible.

Again, why does the 55-1 ratio have to stay? You have too many preconceived assumptions about the future that is misguiding you today. And if the ratio stayed the same, the gains would be EXACTLY the same. That is math.

As I said, I do own silver, but I will not be buying silver in the future. Silver currently moves in the same direction as gold, but at an exponential rate. I will probably start to trade the silver for gold around the $50 level, when I guess gold will be about 1900 or 2000. If I think things are really about to blow, I plan on being almost entirely in gold.

[Steven Douglas]

3. What gives silver most of it's value is the exact opposite of what gives gold it's value. Why would you want your money as a commodity that will be consumed in the future? You believe copper, nickel, wood, oil are money as well?

I don't know if I would phrase it that way. At the most fundamental level, absolutely everything that has value in exchange is, technically speaking, a form of money. It may not be a common 'medium' of exchange, but if it has value in exchange for anything, it is money. That includes anything that cannot be stored or reused, but only consumed, including labor--the only currency that some have to trade in.

Anyone who doubts whether oil is money doesn't understand the first thing about what has kept FRN's the global reserve currency since 1973. Most of the world's oil is priced only in fiat dollars, making oil a fiat currency by proxy. Oil has an exponentially increasing exchange value derived from the facts that:

a) oil is always in demand;
b) the supply of fiat currency that everyone must acquire to buy most oil from its sources is being exponentially inflated, and
c) constant consumption and ever-limited "current" capacity assures constant, continual scarcity

Because demand for oil is not going away, and because the supply of oil on any given day is truly finite, its value "as money"--even by proxy--only increases as more of it is consumed.

What gives silver its value is an amplification of what gives gold its value for similar reasons. Like gold and silver, copper has been used as money since BCE, and that has everything to do with history, and nothing to do with belief.

Why would you want your money as a commodity that will be consumed in the future?

Aside from whatever amounts have been lost along the way, MOST of the 'junk' coins--gold, silver, nickel and copper--that were minted but are not in circulation, are still above ground and in existence in coin form. Junk coins are constantly traded and stacked, but most are not being smelted into bullion or sold for consumption elsewhere. The ONLY reason these are not circulating as coinage, and therefore in greater demand as current money, is 100% due to government force, and government meddling.

If gold was as plentiful as sand on the earth it would be in use everywhere, of course, and I'm sure highly prized nonetheless. But it would also be valueless as money, owing to its lack of scarcity. The fact that a commodity that is used as money may also be 'consumed' as a commodity (not recycled and kept above ground, like gold), amplifies its value as money for that very same reason, as continual consumption is a sure-fire mechanism for continually assured scarcity.

The less of anything that is in demand there is, and the more expensive it becomes to produce, the more valuable it becomes, regardless of its usage (coinage or destructive consumption).

[thoughtomator]

2. If physical silver was manipulated, why can I go to gainesville coins right now and buy as much physical silver as my heart desires? Actual "shortages" in anything is rare, rather only higher prices. btw there is never a universale shortage of money(ie medium of exchange/store of value)

Quick answer on this one - because you're not buying any serious volume. Watch what's happening with Germany and their gold reserves unfold before our eyes to see what happens if a major paper silver investor decides to take physical delivery. Panic (and hilarity, if you're inclined to humor) ensues...

[acptulsa]

I'm thinking about keeping what silver I have and just putting my savings henceforth into low risk (low-yield) investments like t-bills and CDs.

Diversification is well and good. But T bills and CDs right now? With bazillions in 'liquidity' in the banks and inflation already rampant, you really consider something tied to the value of the FRN to be low risk? Seriously?

Negative yield is certainly low yield. It also costs you. I would suggest you rethink that one. If you're in treasuries and cds, when (not if) the value of the dollar drops there's not much to do but bend over.

[oyarde]

Bronze arrow heads were once used as money, now that is function there . Dating , Archaic , from around the Black Sea.

[DFF]

I own some 2014 AGQ calls...bought 'em when spot silver was 31.60...position declined by 25% after yesterdays cartel hit...fucking bastards....JPM and company need to be indicted...shorting 180 million ounces is beyond criminal.

[Steven Douglas]

JPM and company need to be indicted...shorting 180 million ounces is beyond criminal.

They can't do it alone. They get by with a little help from their friends.

[DFF]

Y'know, it would be funny as hell if some well-heeled individual, company, or sovereign government bought 180 million ounces on Monday and requested physical delivery...watching these bastards run for cover would be one of the greatest spectacles ever. LOL