How much intervention is too much?

[juleswin]

Spies are great for things such as understanding the military might of another country, which is always important when it comes to defense. It's also good to be able to have a heads-up on an impending attack.

I know the argument of "if you leave everyone alone, they will leave you alone", but honestly that's bullshit. Iran hasn't done jack to anyone and they have the dogs of war breathing on their neck.

And how would Iran spying on its enemies prevent the lust for war against it?

[ShaneEnochs]

And how would Iran spying on its enemies prevent the lust for war against it?

It doesn't. The point is they would know about an impending attack, as we would.

[Pericles]

Oh, please. Our government reports everything it does that can possibly be construed as a success - it even reports foiling the plots it planned. The only thing it keeps secret is the treachery, corruption, and failures - which is almost everything the intelligence community does.

Government cannot be trusted with the power to act secretly except in times of war.

Edit: perhaps the greatest US intelligence achievement during the Cold War era was the placement of a spy at the very highest levels of the Soviet military. He informed the US government from very early on that Soviet ICBM technology was far behind US technology. And what did our government do with this information? Hid it and instead told the American public that there was a "missile gap", that we were falling behind, and that we needed to accelerate defense spending. And THAT is how your government uses the fruits of its intelligence.

Never forget that the number one priority of American foreign policy is to enrich the same people as are enriched by our domestic policy. The more secret the activity the more blatantly NOT in the public interest it will be. Always.

At no time have I claimed that the US has a good intelligence service, because it doesn't.

[Acala]

At no time have I claimed that the US has a good intelligence service, because it doesn't.

My point, in part, is that nobody does. Eventually they are all either utterly ineffective, sickeningly brutal, or corrupt. Or some combination of the three. Think about it - they are given tons of money, the most advanced weapons, a cloak of secrecy, protection against any kind of moral, legal, or financial accountability, a gloss of patriotism, and express instructions to lie as needed. The human being has yet to be minted that will not eventually sucumb to that heady mix of corrupting influence. Covert agencies are incredibly dangerous to liberty by their very nature. While the benefits may be worth the danger in times of real war (where the liberty of this country is at stake) it never is during times of peace.

[Acala]

My point, in part, is that nobody does. Eventually they are all either utterly ineffective, sickeningly brutal, or corrupt. Or some combination of the three. Think about it - they are given tons of money, the most advanced weapons, a cloak of secrecy, protection against any kind of moral, legal, or financial accountability, a gloss of patriotism, and express instructions to lie as needed. The human being has yet to be minted that will not eventually sucumb to that heady mix of corrupting influence. Covert agencies are incredibly dangerous to liberty by their very nature. While the benefits may be worth the danger in times of real war (where the liberty of this country is at stake) it never is during times of peace.

I forgot one other corrupting influence that, given recent events, seems obvious: the honey trap.

[VoluntaryAmerican]

So I'm a firm believer in the idea that we shouldn't attack countries unless they have threatened / attacked us, but I do think there is room for covert ops missions and intelligence gathering in other countries, and I believe I've heard Ron Paul speak to this. I'm sure other countries do it here. My question is this: how much intervention is too much? I think obviously using CIA agents to stage coups is too far, but what about other things?

I agree, thing is these types of CIA, etc etc. should only be used as a defensive organization - not an offensive one for intervention.

But they are secret government without any real oversight, so they do what they want. I don't like the idea of that one bit.