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Last edited by sailingaway; 10-25-2012 at 06:38 PM.
Good vid. bump
Excellent. Ron tells the truth about the cowards remote control droning like it's a video game.
This was such an awesome interview. Ron didn't pull any punches. He talked about how when Romney went to Poland and was confronted with RP banners and how he plans on writing another book. It was very anti-Republican. He really let loose with his opinions on this one.
He talks about how how our "understanding of liberty is much more advanced than the founders had". Totally revolutionary. I highly recommend this podcast!
Anarcho Capitalists can mark this one down as more proof that Ron understands and supports the anarchist movement. Skip to 19:40
Just starting to listen to it right now.
THE SQUAD of RPF
1. enhanced_deficit - Paid Troll / John Bolton book promoter
2. Devil21 - LARPing Wizard, fake magical script reader
3. Firestarter - Tax Troll; anti-tax = "criminal behavior"
4. TheCount - Comet Pizza Pedo Denier <-- sick
@Ehanced_Deficit's real agenda on RPF =troll:
Who spends this much time copy/pasting the same recycled links, photos/talking points.
7 yrs/25k posts later RPF'ers still respond to this troll
That is a great interview.
Yes, if you are a pro-government anarchist because Ron Paul said, "what government should be doing, or shouldn't be doing" Ron Paul is acknowledging, like Mises and Rothbard, that government has a legitimate role to play in society albeit a small one.Originally Posted by fr33
If you are going to throw the term "anarchist movement" around without clearly defining it, then you will undermine your own message. Notice how Ron referred to the "Libertarian Camp" rather than use the word "Anarchist Camp." There is a reason for that. Large land owners, commercial building owners, shopping center owners, developers, homeowners, and many highly influential people who you will need to be on your side do not want anything to do with an "anarchist movement." They are very friendly to liberty and at the same time understand that the state has a role to play in property rights. How do I know this? Because I talk to land owners regularly.
So if the An-Caps want to include this in your win column, then at least listen carefully to the words Ron speaks.
Ron Paul and Mises - may be but Rothbard - what are you talking about? You hardly find someone who hated the government more than Rothbard and was more consistent in denying it. And late Mises, by the way, probably under the influence of the work of Rothbard, said that modern national states were not what he kept in mind...
Last edited by alex_florida; 10-24-2012 at 08:11 AM.
There is a will, there is a way!
The modern national states are not what classical liberals had in mind, not what the founders had in mind, nor are the modern national states even legitimate governments. They are illegitimate as defined by John Locke.
Mises said,4.4 The Function Of Civil Government
Locke is now in a position to explain the function of a legitimate government and distinguish it from illegitimate government. The aim of such a legitimate government is to preserve, so far as possible, the rights to life, liberty, health and property of its citizens, and to prosecute and punish those of its citizens who violate the rights of others and to pursue the public good even where this may conflict with the rights of individuals. In doing this it provides something unavailable in the state of nature, an impartial judge to determine the severity of the crime, and to set a punishment proportionate to the crime. This is one of the main reasons why civil society is an improvement on the state of nature. An illegitimate government will fail to protect the rights to life, liberty, health and property of its subjects, and in the worst cases, such an illegitimate government will claim to be able to violate the rights of its subjects, that is it will claim to have despotic power over its subjects.
Ron Paul said,We call the social apparatus of compulsion and coercion that induces people to abide by the rules of life in society, the state; the rules according to which the state proceeds, law; and the organs charged with the responsibility of administering the apparatus of compulsion, government.
Rothbard said,"The U.S. Constitution is the most unique and best contract ever drawn up between a people and their government in history. Though flawed from the beginning, because all men are flawed, it nevertheless has served us well and set an example for the entire world.
...
I believe it's worthwhile for all of us to tirelessly pursue the preservation of the elegant Constitution with which we have been so blessed."
In essence, here is the way Mises summed up classical liberal philosophy,The libertarian creed, finally, offers the fulfillment of the best of the American past along with the promise of a far better future. Even more than conservatives, who are often attached to the monarchical traditions of a happily obsolete European past, libertarians are squarely in the great classicalliberal tradition that built the United States and bestowed on us the American heritage of individual liberty, a peaceful foreign policy, minimal government, and a free-market economy. Libertarians are the only genuine current heirs of Jefferson, Paine, Jackson, and the abolitionists.
Not doing away with the state; not doing away with law; not doing away with government; private ownership of the means of production."The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production... All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand."
Last edited by Travlyr; 10-24-2012 at 08:59 AM.
not seeing a vid.. just the pod cast
Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,
The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!
Deleted
Last edited by alex_florida; 10-24-2012 at 09:04 AM.
There is a will, there is a way!
In answer to Travlyr:
According to Rothbard [Nomos XIX], a state must have one or both of the following characteristics :
1) The ability to tax those who live within it.
2) It asserts and usually obtains a coerced monopoly of the provision of defence over a given area.
Instead of this, according Rothbard, the "anarcho"-capitalist thinks that people should be able to select their own defense companies, which would provide police, courts, etc. These associations would "all... would have to abide by the basic law code"
As far as I understand Rothbard he saw no need for the existence of a state.
The key thing is to define the difference between a State and Government. Thomas Paine said that a government is something that provides of “security and freedom.”
A state however:
(1) acquires its income by the physical coercion known as “taxation”;
and
(2) asserts and usually obtains a coerced monopoly of the provision of defense service (police and courts) over a given territorial area.
An institution not possessing either of these properties is not and cannot be, in accordance with Rothbard said and my understanding, a state. But it could be a government based on a voluntary association of people.
Last edited by alex_florida; 10-24-2012 at 09:08 AM.
There is a will, there is a way!
That is all fine and dandy. What I am sharing with you is that I have spent much of my life visiting with farmers, land owners, owners of commercial real estate, developers, homeowners, and many people of influence in county governments. They are not philosophers. They understand the state in a much different way. If the liberty philosophy is going to be promoted as an anarchist philosophy with the intent to do away with the state and government as they know it, then the liberty movement just as well be shooting themselves in the foot if not the chest because it will be DOA with those folks. If you don't believe me, then go to where the farmers meet for coffee each morning, tell them all about your anarchist philosophy, and see for yourself.
You're really missing out. Rockwell is wearing a suit. So is Paul.
Wow, this was such a great interview. Ron sounded very happy, and more excited and optimistic than I've heard him in a while... That was inspiring. I only wish it was longer.
I totally agree with this sentiment. Anarchism is probably even a tough sell among Ron Paul supporters. I've read a couple of books by Rothbard and articles on Lew Rockwell's site. I'm definitely not convinced. Hayek and Mises certainly saw the need for a state. Mises even called the state a necessary good and I suspect Hayek felt the same way.
This is a really good interview.
"Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul
"Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden
Yes, it is. And he seems eager to talk about the issues openly with Lew, even though he knows Lew already knows. It's like when you get into a conversation with your buddies that you agree on and you feed each other and things get clearer and clearer.
I hope to hear from Ron a lot more in comfortable situations, even if the topics are not necessarily so.
"When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law
"nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence
"I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin
I thought the same thing, he was venting with a friend.Yes, it is. And he seems eager to talk about the issues openly with Lew, even though he knows Lew already knows. It's like when you get into a conversation with your buddies that you agree on and you feed each other and things get clearer and clearer.
I hope to hear from Ron a lot more in comfortable situations, even if the topics are not necessarily so.
"Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul
"Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden
It's kind of a waste trying to explain these things to Trav. He either doesn't understand classical liberalism and libertarianism or pretends not to just to troll ya.
I am a farmer and landowner and live amongst such people. It's equally challenging to convince them that Muslims are people too, Israel is an apartheid state, and that the drug war should be ended.
A land owner deals directly with the County Clerk and Recorder, the Sheriff, the Road Commissioner, and County Commissioners. How is that not more real than the propaganda of someone else's religion and prohibition?
Last edited by Travlyr; 10-25-2012 at 02:31 AM.
At least I talk about the issues rather than just come into threads for the fun of "pwning" others or working to discredit them.
BTW HB34, if you were to actually read my rebuttal to alex_florida, instead of posting your usual standard personal attack, you would have learned that I understood and agreed with him in principle but offered a thoughtful response to help him understand me and my friends so that he could consider whether or not to continue his course of action or take a different tack.Message to: CCTelander
Message from: heavenlyboy34 - 09-02-2012 10:22 PM
"Thanks for the +rep man. 'Twas fun pwning Trav tonight. ttyl."
Last edited by Travlyr; 10-25-2012 at 02:54 AM.
Actually, I did deal with an issue:This comment deals with an action you performed, not you personally. Back to logic and rhetoric 101 with you before you try to engage in real conversation.He either doesn't understand classical liberalism and libertarianism or pretends not to just to troll ya.
If you read our respective histories, you'll find that you are the one consistently dealing in personal attacks (and a physical threat or two). I prefer to mow down your logical fallacies and outright incorrect statements.
No, that is direct attack on my credibility. It is called Poisoning the Well.
It is inappropriate, it is against forum guidelines and I have asked you to leave me alone. Debate the issues and leave my name out of your discussions.Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.
You are a liar. I made no physical threat here on RPF. That fight was brought to RPF from another Internet world by CCTelander.
More Poisoning the Well by a disingenuous liar.
Again, this is not a personal attack. It is a legitimate debate technique and within forum guidelines. If you stuck with the issues yourself, you wouldn't find yourself brought into discussion.
I am not a liar. You used a threat of violence (a throat punch) and were temp-banned for it. If you understood the poisoning the well fallacy, you'd know it doesn't apply here. Study the logical fallacies harder.
I hope this issue is settled now. But if you must, now that you know you have no argument, -rep me again. Or perhaps some more petty insults.
quit attacking him. He responded reasonably. You seem to get great pleasure by provoking him to the point where you both are banned. Cut it out.
"Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul
"Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden
Let's stop at this point. Pissing matches don't need to be carried on on the public pages, you two should exchange phone numbers or something.
"Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul
"Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden
Back on topic.
This is a great interview of Ron Paul by Lew Rockwell. It is well worth the time if you have the time.
And I stand by everything I said in this thread. My intention is to inform. The Classical Liberals I quoted in this thread, John Locke, Ludwig von Mises, Ron Paul, and Murray Rothbard have heavily influenced my own philosophy. I understand Classical Liberalism just fine. I do hold some disagreement with Rothbard, but I agree with most of what he stood for especially concerning money. "The Mystery of Banking" is extraordinary.
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