Is Secession a Good Idea?

[jay_dub]

No, certain moral judgments can be made for all time; slavery is always bad, denying the very fundamental of ownership of one's own self, and hence self determination. No justification of conditions is acceptable here, since the fundamental is unchanged. Child labor sounds bad, conditions sound worse? but is it voluntarily chosen? Then it is not worse than slavery, if the children are held against their will or forced to work, then it IS slavery anyway. The modern income tax and the military draft are also forms of partial slavery too. I object to them all fundamentally to the degree of total enslavement that they represent. Perhaps one can make a case that certain slaves were allowed to do certain things, earn money, have some free time; well in this case they were not a total slave then, just mostly enslaved. If you must pay 50% of your income to the government under threat of imprisonment then as far as the labor that you expend to earn that taxed income you are 50% enslaved, no matter how nice the IRS agent you deal with is, or how much time and leniency they give you to cough it all up.

My quibble might be unjustified if you are simply saying that there were children and white slaves in the North as well. But slavery can be looked at as theoretically bad for all time, in my opinion. See Rothbard, especially Ethics of Liberty and Hoppe DTGTF

Nothing in my post in any way justified slavery. I only said you can't look at in isolation.

At the time, we were not that far removed from burning and drowning witches. Following a slave riot in New York in 1741, slaves were burned at the stake. This was not a 21st century society.

My post was just to offer context to the human condition in Colonial and Antebellum America.

We are talking about secession and all mostly agree that yes, the ability to secede is essential to a free people. The problem is, in America the discussion always goes back to our own example of secession. In that slavery always comes up. It is a red herring that discredits the notion of secession and justifies the essential liberties that were given up in a war that popular history has justified largely by invoking the slavery issue. While the US applauds secession globally, our own ability to secede has been taken us; from supposedly the most free people on Earth.

Providing context and looking at the whole cloth of that era is critical in changing the collective consciousness. Otherwise, we will continue to use the South and slavery as the scapegoat for turning the Constitution on its head.

[Stallheim]

Nothing in my post in any way justified slavery. I only said you can't look at in isolation.

At the time, we were not that far removed from burning and drowning witches. Following a slave riot in New York in 1741, slaves were burned at the stake. This was not a 21st century society.

My post was just to offer context to the human condition in Colonial and Antebellum America.

We are talking about secession and all mostly agree that yes, the ability to secede is essential to a free people. The problem is, in America the discussion always goes back to our own example of secession. In that slavery always comes up. It is a red herring that discredits the notion of secession and justifies the essential liberties that were given up in a war that popular history has justified largely by invoking the slavery issue. While the US applauds secession globally, our own ability to secede has been taken us; from supposedly the most free people on Earth.

Providing context and looking at the whole cloth of that era is critical in changing the collective consciousness. Otherwise, we will continue to use the South and slavery as the scapegoat for turning the Constitution on its head.

I completely agree with this. Thank you for the clarification. I have really enjoyed the depth of historical knowledge and the interesting quotes from a wide range of sources that you keep bringing to this discussion. I am learning a lot.

[bxm042]

Also I see absolutely no moral requirement to support any foreign governmental system of coercion, no matter who likes and supports it. I have no horse in that race.

That may be, but I would hope you would at least have a moral objection to someone interfering with their governmental system.

[Stallheim]

That may be, but I would hope you would at least have a moral objection to someone interfering with their governmental system.

Certainly not. I have no objection to an individual interfering with a foreign governmental system(I would oppose state interference though). There is nothing sacred about a governmental system per se, if it is a system of extreme coersion and repression it is the great enemy of civilization. Thankfully in our scenario it is not my governmental system so I have no difficult soul searching to do. In this scenario your acceptance or even embracing of this system doesn't simply harm you, your alliance and submission is instrumental in enslaving your fellow countrymen. Of the two of you, the "liberating foreign adventurer" and you, the opressed submissive, I have the most sympathy for the liberating foreigner. He cares more for your neighbors then you do. But if he gets caught and punished because all of you don't want help, then it ends there. He knew the risks and simply over estimated your hunger for freedom. Morally I side with him since you are complicit in oppressing your fellow countrymen.

Now I know this is a devil's advocate thought experiment, so don't worry that I am suspecting you personally of any similar motivations: after all you are a porc and have passed through this intelectual liberty fire already I am sure.

[jay_dub]

I completely agree with this. Thank you for the clarification. I have really enjoyed the depth of historical knowledge and the interesting quotes from a wide range of sources that you keep bringing to this discussion. I am learning a lot.

I'm unapologetic in my defense of the Confederate cause. My efforts are to delink that cause from slavery, which tarnishes it and, by extension, tarnishes the whole concept of secession.

Slavery, as reprehensible as it is, was legal at the time. For a state to be engaging in a legal activity is no excuse for our POTUS to suspend habeas corpus and lock up literally thousands of Northern newspaper editors, police chiefs, mayors, judges and other assorted malcontents in an effort to mute opposition to a war that Ron Paul has correctly called a war to consolidate power in the Central Government. It is no justification for the deaths of over 600,000 Americans nor of dividing the South up into military departments following the war until absolute obedience was achieved.

A glaring example of this is the arrest of Francis Key Howard, grandson of Francis Scott Key.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The grandson of Francis Scott Key, Francis Key Howard, the editor of the Baltimore Exchange, was arrested as well as others who wrote against Lincoln. While he was imprisoned at Fort McHenry, he wrote the following words. The date was September 13, 1861...... 47 years to the day!

"When I looked out in the morning, I could not help being struck by an odd and not pleasant coincidence. On that day, forty-seven years before, my grandfather, Mr. F. S. Key, the prisoner on a British ship, had witnessed the bombardment of Ft. McHenry. When on the following morning the hospital fleet drew off, defeated, he wrote the song so long popular throughout the country, the Star Spangled Banner. As I stood upon the very scene of that conflict, I could not but contrast my position with his, forty-seven years before. The flag which he had then so proudly hailed, I saw waving at the same place over the victims of as vulgar and brutal a despotism as modern times have witnessed."

When he was finally released on November 27, 1862 he wrote:

"We came out of prison just as we had gone in, holding the same just scorn and detestation [for] the despotism under which the country was prostrate, and with a stronger resolution that ever to oppose it by every means to which, as American freemen, we had the right to resort."

From......"Fourteen Months In the American Bastiles" by Francis Key Howard

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Notice how, when other countries have gained their freedom through secession, we applaud the effort but don't use the word 'secession'. That shows just how taboo the concept has become in America. The breakup of the Soviet Union was brought about through secession, a right explicit in its Constitution. We instead subscribe to an indivisible, more perfect union at any cost. After all, we are the land of the free and the home of the brave. WTF??

On the issue of slavery in America, the best resource I've found on the web is this. You'll find it well sourced and offers a view ranging beyond slavery as a Southern only institution.

http://www.slavenorth.com/

[bxm042]

Certainly not. I have no objection to an individual interfering with a foreign governmental system(I would oppose state interference though). There is nothing sacred about a governmental system per se, if it is a system of extreme coersion and repression it is the great enemy of civilization. Thankfully in our scenario it is not my governmental system so I have no difficult soul searching to do. In this scenario your acceptance or even embracing of this system doesn't simply harm you, your alliance and submission is instrumental in enslaving your fellow countrymen. Of the two of you, the "liberating foreign adventurer" and you, the opressed submissive, I have the most sympathy for the liberating foreigner. He cares more for your neighbors then you do. But if he gets caught and punished because all of you don't want help, then it ends there. He knew the risks and simply over estimated your hunger for freedom. Morally I side with him since you are complicit in oppressing your fellow countrymen.

Would you have any objections to someone intervening in a couple's violent BDSM session?

If so, how is a voluntary Communist police-state society really much different from that?

[Stallheim]

I support all secession anywhere and for any reason. It is worth advocating for no mater what the mixed or even corrupt motivations of its specific advocates since each successful one makes the world just a little safer and easier for liberty to be established everywhere. Keep up the good work reading, researching and communicating. Lysander Spooner, as a Northern Abolitionist cuts the Gordian Knot for me.

I'm unapologetic in my defense of the Confederate cause. My efforts are to delink that cause from slavery, which tarnishes it and, by extension, tarnishes the whole concept of secession.

Slavery, as reprehensible as it is, was legal at the time. For a state to be engaging in a legal activity is no excuse for our POTUS to suspend habeas corpus and lock up literally thousands of Northern newspaper editors, police chiefs, mayors, judges and other assorted malcontents in an effort to mute opposition to a war that Ron Paul has correctly called a war to consolidate power in the Central Government. It is no justification for the deaths of over 600,000 Americans nor of dividing the South up into military departments following the war until absolute obedience was achieved.

A glaring example of this is the arrest of Francis Key Howard, grandson of Francis Scott Key.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The grandson of Francis Scott Key, Francis Key Howard, the editor of the Baltimore Exchange, was arrested as well as others who wrote against Lincoln. While he was imprisoned at Fort McHenry, he wrote the following words. The date was September 13, 1861...... 47 years to the day!

"When I looked out in the morning, I could not help being struck by an odd and not pleasant coincidence. On that day, forty-seven years before, my grandfather, Mr. F. S. Key, the prisoner on a British ship, had witnessed the bombardment of Ft. McHenry. When on the following morning the hospital fleet drew off, defeated, he wrote the song so long popular throughout the country, the Star Spangled Banner. As I stood upon the very scene of that conflict, I could not but contrast my position with his, forty-seven years before. The flag which he had then so proudly hailed, I saw waving at the same place over the victims of as vulgar and brutal a despotism as modern times have witnessed."

When he was finally released on November 27, 1862 he wrote:

"We came out of prison just as we had gone in, holding the same just scorn and detestation [for] the despotism under which the country was prostrate, and with a stronger resolution that ever to oppose it by every means to which, as American freemen, we had the right to resort."

From......"Fourteen Months In the American Bastiles" by Francis Key Howard

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Notice how, when other countries have gained their freedom through secession, we applaud the effort but don't use the word 'secession'. That shows just how taboo the concept has become in America. The breakup of the Soviet Union was brought about through secession, a right explicit in its Constitution. We instead subscribe to an indivisible, more perfect union at any cost. After all, we are the land of the free and the home of the brave. WTF??

On the issue of slavery in America, the best resource I've found on the web is this. You'll find it well sourced and offers a view ranging beyond slavery as a Southern only institution.

http://www.slavenorth.com/

[jay_dub]

Secession is the ultimate defense against tyranny.

“When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.”

Though the above Jefferson quote is often associated with the 2nd Amendment, it must apply equally to secession as well. In the modern day, we have no chance at forcibly defeating a corrupt government through arms. What is left to us is secession as a last resort.

[Brian4Liberty]

There is a case to be made that the vast majority of laws should be local, to coincide with the standards of the community. On the other hand, it also makes sense for there to be international standards for the convenience of trade and travel. Of course this is the essential basis of the US Constitution, it's just too bad that people don't follow it, especially our "leaders".

[erowe1]

Would you have any objections to someone intervening in a couple's violent BDSM session?

If so, how is a voluntary Communist police-state society really much different from that?

I'm jumping in late and haven't followed the thread.

But if it's a violent Communist police-state, doesn't that mean it's not voluntary?