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Thread: Is Secession a Good Idea?

  1. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    Secession, self-determination, declaring independence, political separation, divorce, is the most fundamental Natural Right that free people have and to call it silly makes me question your understanding of what freedom and liberty are really about. Secession is freedom. I don't care about the Civil War. The Civil War came and went and ignites a lot of racial and regional tensions that have nothing to do with secession. When I talk about secession I talk about the American Revolution, the collapse of the Soviets, and other international examples which are much easier for Americans to understand without sounding like a white supremacist.

    If we are going to speak of the Civil War I will say this: There were 4 million slaves in the United States before the Civil War. After the Civil War there were 33.2 million. Prior to the war you could see the slaves, you could identify them by their skin color, their education, and their possessions. After the Civil War you couldn't see the slaves anymore. The slaves were in name free but in practice they were slaves to a, at the time, tame master. But as both the master and slave realized the nature of their relationship the master has became more assertive and aggressive pushing the slaves to see how far they can go. At this point, many slaves have woken up but there are many who still believe themselves to be free when no American since 1865 could truly claim that status.
    +mega rep
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.




  • #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    I did not say that the signers of the Declaration were fools. Those are your words.
    No, but you said something equally foolish:
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    If, and only if, you want to get the shit kicked out of you.
    BTW, why did you take me off your precious "ignore" list? I was proud to have exposed your folly so thoroughly that you were forced to ignore me rather than actually deal with me.

    Thank you also for the very immature -rep. I'm sure your mother would be proud of your tact and eloquence:

    [h=(1970 point(s) total)]2[/h]
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 10-20-2012 at 11:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.


  • #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    No, but you said something equally foolish:

    BTW, why did you take me off your precious "ignore" list? I was proud to have exposed your folly so thoroughly that you were forced to ignore me rather than actually deal with me.

    Thank you also for the very immature -rep. I'm sure your mother would be proud of your tact and eloquence:

    [h=(1970 point(s) total)]2[/h]
    Exposed my folly? I took you off my ignore list because I thought you might be done attacking me personally. I took nearly everyone off my ignore list. Dude you are an idiot. You did not even know that Lincoln was an abolitionist. You are a shallow thinker and a girly man.

    So, in your twisted world your -rep was mature and my -rep in retaliation was immature? Maybe you should stop attacking me both in the forums and privately. Add something to the discussion rather than always working to discredit me.

    Actually, those men were the type to hug and weren't so insecure in their sexuality as you are. -rep from HB34
    Last edited by Travlyr; 10-20-2012 at 11:58 PM.

  • #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    That's the kind of pussy shit attitude that got us in this mess.

    Grow some balls.
    Show me a time when secession did not result in failure.

  • #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Show me a time when secession did not result in failure.
    The American Revolution would be the most obvious.

    Texas seceding from Mexico is another.

    The satellite republics of the Soviet Union gaining independence were acts of secession.

    More recent is South Sudan seceding from Sudan in 2011.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The United States formally recognized the Republic of South Sudan on July 9 and pledged steadfast partnership as the South Sudanese begin building a new country after decades of civil war.

    President Obama issued the formal recognition of the world’s newest nation in Washington as independence ceremonies and celebrations were being held in the new country’s capital, Juba, and across South Sudan.

    “Today is the reminder that after the darkness of war, the light of a new dawn is possible,” Obama said. “A proud flag flies over Juba and the map of the world has been redrawn.”

    “These symbols speak to the blood that has been spilled, the tears that have been shed, the ballots that have been cast, and the hopes that have been realized by so many millions of people,” he added.

    Obama said that July 9 marks the creation of two new neighbors — South Sudan and Sudan, from which the south separated. The people of South Sudan voted in a weeklong national referendum for independence in balloting that began January 9. That vote was called for by the 2005 Comprehensive Peace Agreement that ended two decades of civil war.

    http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/e...#axzz29uVCNIUh
    "The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert itself, though it may be at another time and in another form"..... Jefferson Davis

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle".
    .....Edmund Burke

    "A corrupt electoral process can only lead to corrupt Government."
    ......jay_dub

  • #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by jay_dub View Post
    The American Revolution would be the most obvious.

    Texas seceding from Mexico is another.

    The satellite republics of the Soviet Union gaining independence were acts of secession.

    More recent is South Sudan seceding from Sudan in 2011.
    I'll take the first two even though Texas paid a heavy penalty at the Alamo.

    The Soviet Union were not so much acts of secession as it was the failure of the USSR, so I do not agree to those.

    South Sudan from Sudan is a situation I am not familiar with so you win that one by default.

    Thanks for the honest discussion.

  • #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    I'll take the first two even though Texas paid a heavy penalty at the Alamo.

    The Soviet Union were not so much acts of secession as it was the failure of the USSR, so I do not agree to those.

    South Sudan from Sudan is a situation I am not familiar with so you win that one by default.

    Thanks for the honest discussion.
    The Soviet Constitution (yep, they had one) explicitly grants the republics the right to secession, so secession would be the correct term.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Article 70. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is an integral, federal, multinational state formed on the principle of socialist federalism as a result of the free self-determination of nations and the voluntary association of equal Soviet Socialist Republics.
    The USSR embodies the state unity of the Soviet people and draws all its nations and nationalities together for the purpose of jointly building communism.

    Article 71. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics unites:
    the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic
    the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Uzbek Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Azerbeijan Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Moldovian Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Kirghiz Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Tajik Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Turkmen Soviet Socialist Republic,
    the Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic.

    Article 72. Each Union Republic shall retain the right freely to secede from the USSR.


    http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/.../77cons03.html

    And thank you. I have enjoyed the discussion, too.
    "The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert itself, though it may be at another time and in another form"..... Jefferson Davis

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle".
    .....Edmund Burke

    "A corrupt electoral process can only lead to corrupt Government."
    ......jay_dub

  • #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by jay_dub View Post
    Abe Lincoln...the original Big Brother.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "Mr. Lincoln saw an opportunity to inaugurate civil war without appearing in the character of an aggressor." ~ Providence Daily Post, April 13 1861

    "We are to have civil war, if at all, because Abraham Lincoln loves a [the Republican] party better than he loves his country.... [He] clings to his party creed, and allows the nation to drift into the whirlpool of destruction." ~ The Providence Daily Post, April 13 1861

    "If this result follows – and follow civil war it must – the memory of ABRAHAM LINCOLN and his infatuated advisors will only be preserved with that of other destroyers to the scorned and execrated.... And if the historian who preserves the record of his fatal administration needs any motto descriptive of the president who destroyed the institutions which he swore to protect, it will probably be some such as this: Here is the record of one who feared more to have it said that he deserted his party than that he ruined the country, who had a greater solicitude for his consistency as a partisan than for his wisdom as a Statesman or his courage and virtue as a patriot, and who destroyed by his weakness the fairest experiment of man in self-government that the world ever witnessed." ~ The American Standard, New Jersey, April 12, 1861, the very day the South moved to reclaim Fort Sumter.

    "The affair at Fort Sumter, it seems to us, has been planned as a means by which the war feeling at the North should be intensified, and the administration thus receive popular support for its policy.... If the armament which lay outside the harbor, while the fort was being battered to pieces [the US ship The Harriet Lane, and seven other reinforcement ships], had been designed for the relief of Major Anderson, it certainly would have made a show of fulfilling its mission. But it seems plain to us that no such design was had. The administration, virtually, to use a homely illustration, stood at Sumter like a boy with a chip on his shoulder, daring his antagonist to knock it off. The Carolinians have knocked off the chip. War is inaugurated, and the design of the administration accomplished." ~ The Buffalo Daily Courier, April 16, 1861.

    "We have no doubt, and all the circumstances prove, that it was a cunningly devised scheme, contrived with all due attention to scenic display and intended to arouse, and, if possible, exasperate the northern people against the South.... We venture to say a more gigantic conspiracy against the principles of human liberty and freedom has never been concocted. Who but a fiend could have thought of sacrificing the gallant Major Anderson and his little band in order to carry out a political game? Yet there he was compelled to stand for thirty-six hours amid a torrent of fire and shell, while the fleet sent to assist him, coolly looked at his flag of distress and moved not to his assistance! Why did they not? Perhaps the archives in Washington will yet tell the tale of this strange proceeding.... Pause then, and consider before you endorse these mad men who are now, under pretense of preserving the Union, doing the very thing that must forever divide it. ~ The New York Evening Day-Book, April 17, 1861.

    Foreign Commentary:

    "Democracy broke down, not when the Union ceased to be agreeable to all its constituent States, but when it was upheld, like any other Empire, by force of arms." ~ The London Times.

    "With what pretence of fairness, it is said, can you Americans object to the secession of the Southern States when your nation was founded on secession from the British Empire?" ~ Cornhill Magazine (London) 1861.

    "The struggle of today is on the one side for empire and on the other for independence." ~ Wigan Examiner (UK) May, 1861.
    Interesting quotes. Abe Lincoln was sworn in on March 4, 1861 and planned the Civil War within a month? That is pretty fast planning even today.

    I do see how the South would be proud of their right to secession and independence. I do not see how the South is proud of fighting for their right to keep slaves.
    Last edited by Travlyr; 10-21-2012 at 02:31 AM.

  • #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    Secession, self-determination, declaring independence, political separation, divorce, is the most fundamental Natural Right that free people have and to call it silly makes me question your understanding of what freedom and liberty are really about. Secession is freedom. I don't care about the Civil War. The Civil War came and went and ignites a lot of racial and regional tensions that have nothing to do with secession. When I talk about secession I talk about the American Revolution, the collapse of the Soviets, and other international examples which are much easier for Americans to understand without sounding like a white supremacist.

    If we are going to speak of the Civil War I will say this: There were 4 million slaves in the United States before the Civil War. After the Civil War there were 33.2 million. Prior to the war you could see the slaves, you could identify them by their skin color, their education, and their possessions. After the Civil War you couldn't see the slaves anymore. The slaves were in name free but in practice they were slaves to a, at the time, tame master. But as both the master and slave realized the nature of their relationship the master has became more assertive and aggressive pushing the slaves to see how far they can go. At this point, many slaves have woken up but there are many who still believe themselves to be free when no American since 1865 could truly claim that status.
    You do not have the right to beat your girlfriend, keep slaves, or be judge, jury, and executioner. If secession is desired to retain perceived rights to violate the rights of others, then justice prevails by not allowing secession.

  • #200

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    The way some men here seem to express themselves is pretty poor. "girly man". Do you realise Arnold the former governor of california back at the 2004 national convention used those words about the Democrats? That ultra macho pathetic low life, racist, sexist, sexual harrasser moron that he is.

    I didn't even know the SU even had such a clause, phony socialists, lying communists. The one thing that socialism, communism, and Libertarianism have in common they are useless with no economic grow or a low energy society. So arguing over these beliefs and even liberty is a waste of time. None of it will even matter years from now.

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