Yeah, and he rates equality right up there with liberty just like a good socialist banker shill would do.Originally Posted by bxm042
Yeah, and he rates equality right up there with liberty just like a good socialist banker shill would do.
Again, you believe it's ok for government to rob (tax) & coerce (conscript) people, that clearly means you're against freedom & equality for all. Denying it doesn't change facts!
There is enormous inertia a tyranny of the status quo in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis actual or perceived produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman
Oh really? In fact, I've provided clear arguments that completely shatter your conspiracy-theories about Fed & banking, that's why you're having to tuck your tail and run!
And I've never said bankers aren't evil or anything, bankers are a diverse group of individuals, I don't know all of them so I can't paint them with any kind broad brush - all I've tried is to point out that in the light of facts & reason (as opposed to fancy conspiracy-theories), it CAN'T be said that Fed was created primarily to benefit the bankers, it was NOT, it was created primarily to benefit the government & anyone who's willing to learn & research facts, can clearly see for themselves that government has been & is the largest beneficiary of Fed's money-creation, not banks.
But again, if some people are immune to facts & reason, & instead like to revel in fancy conspiracy-theories then there's not much that can be done to help them!
There is enormous inertia a tyranny of the status quo in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis actual or perceived produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman
You've done no such thing. You've made no new points in... maybe, 5-6 pages. You're just rehashing old points that I've already addressed, going in circles and adding personal attacks.
It's a waste of time.
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
Part of it has to do with technological advances, economies of scale, and other measures used to lower the cost of goods sold. Manufacturing is getting leaner and cheaper labor is being drafted.
Your intellectual dishonesty is appalling!
To the contrary, I've refuted each and every one of the baseless arguments you conspiracy-theorists make :
1) That government "pays" interest to Fed on the money Fed creates to buy government-debt - WRONG, Fed not only hands over the interest government has "paid" but much more than that BACK to the government.
Once the above is debunked you people say -
2) Banks created & support Fed because of the money they make thru PD system - WRONG, PD system will likely continue to exists whether Fed exists or not because it will continue to help Treasury maximize its revenue from debt.
When the above was debunked you say -
3) Look at all the bad assets Fed bought from banks, that's how they benefit from Fed - WRONG, because Fed was created in 1913 & until the 2008 crisis, Fed had never bought bad assets from banks in a way that would benefit them & it would be childish to think that banks created Fed in 1913 & waited nearly a century to extract monetary benefit out of the system.
And even the whatever was bought in 2008 was to prevent banking collapse which government fears very much as well as to try to keep the housing-bubble afloat & to re-inflate it.
I've explained in detail the enormous monetary benefit the government rakes in due to Fed but because you're blinded by conspiracy-theories about banking, you conveniently ignore facts & reason.
My original contention in this thread was against your belief that all the money-creation Fed engages in benefits the banks & I've explained why it is NOT the case, & anyone who's willing to check facts will find that to be true, & will also realize that it's the government that extracts enormous monetary benefit from the economy thru Federal Reserve System.
Another factor might be productivity. Instead of enjoying lower costs, any benefit from productivty is inflated away. We might make and distribute bread 10% more efficiently over a period of time, but inflation can wipe that out and result in a "modest" 5% price increase. The actual price increase, if adjusted for inflation, would be higher - like 15%.
Last edited by Paul Or Nothing II; 11-06-2012 at 03:49 AM.
There is enormous inertia a tyranny of the status quo in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis actual or perceived produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman
Glad I didn't get in on this one on the ground floor.
Bad assets or not, they still profit from the Fed. I've already explained this several times, it's simple supply and demand. The Fed buys products at a price that noone else is willing and able to buy at that time. Focusing on just the "bad assets" instead of just "assets" is just one of the countless strawmen you like to use.
The other arguments in your post is just more red herrings. As usual. I fully expect you to write another novel in response to this full with more strawmen and red herrings.
For example..
I never made this claim, yet you seem to be implying I did. You're also implying that I didn't already know this. That's your game, here. Keep telling people that they just don't understand, that they don't know how the Fed works. Not sure what logical fallacy that is, but I'm sure there's a name for it1) That government "pays" interest to Fed on the money Fed creates to buy government-debt - WRONG, Fed not only hands over the interest government has "paid" but much more than that BACK to the government.
Last edited by bxm042; 11-06-2012 at 10:24 AM.
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
Interesting new conspiracy-theory! Could you specify what these "assets" are that you're referring Fed always buys to benefit banks? Oh no, that would be too difficult, would it?
As I've said, you or anyone else can go through the history of what Fed has bought & facts will bear themselves out that before 2008 crisis, Fed didn't engage in buying up "assets that noone else is willing to buy" in a way that would bring in significant monetary benefit that could be correlated to inflation.
But again, you have nothing to do with facts & reason so I fully expect another nonsense response pretending that the conspiracy-theories you believe in are true even though facts & reason say something totally different!
P.S. You say I focus on "bad assets" while it seems you wish I'd focus on "assets noone else is willing to buy" but here's the thing, assets that noone wants to buy (at a high price anyway) are what people call bad assetsbut again, logic isn't something that can be expected from conspiracy-theorists! Oh no!
There is enormous inertia a tyranny of the status quo in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis actual or perceived produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman
It's basic economics. You should know this.Interesting new conspiracy-theory! Could you specify what these "assets" are that you're referring Fed always buys to benefit banks? Oh no, that would be too difficult, would it?
As I've said, you or anyone else can go through the history of what Fed has bought & facts will bear themselves out that before 2008 crisis, Fed didn't engage in buying up "assets that noone else is willing to buy" in a way that would bring in significant monetary benefit that could be correlated to inflation.
But again, you have nothing to do with facts & reason so I fully expect another nonsense response pretending that the conspiracy-theories you believe in are true even though facts & reason say something totally different!
P.S. You say I focus on "bad assets" while it seems you wish I'd focus on "assets noone else is willing to buy" but here's the thing, assets that noone wants to buy (at a high price anyway) are what people call bad assets
10 people attend an art auction. 1 of them, named Bernie, is a counterfeiter, who's job is to buy paintings. 1 of them, named Joe, really, really likes Botticelli.
A Botticelli piece goes up for bid. Joe is willing to pay up to $600,000 for the piece. The other 8 people are willing to pay only $200,000 for the piece.
Without the counterfeiter, Joe would win the auction at $201,000. With the counterfeiter, Bernie would win the auction at $601,000.
That's an extra $400,000 in the pocket for anyone who sold that Botticelli.
I think it's hilarious that you call this basic economic principle of supply and demand a "conspiracy theory."
You also have zero evidence that there is no significant monetary benefit from this process. All (well, nearly all) money enters the system through this process, and considering the amount of money in circulation, it's very foolish to say it's not a factor. The recent years have only reinforced this, by providing solid evidence of a correlation between money printed and banker profits. This has been going on for a very, very long time. The only difference is now, it is ridiculously obvious.
New? I posted this like 20 pages ago. This is solid proof they make more money with the Fed than without it, but you have repeatedly stated they do not. The Law of Supply and Demand obviously disagrees with you... but I guess that's just a conspiracy theory, right?
Law of Supply and demand = Conspiracy theory.... you crack me up, man.
Last edited by bxm042; 11-06-2012 at 11:10 AM.
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
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