SR 68 The Gold Solution is a Lie - Bill Still

[Steven Douglas]

Tks. again for your observations. We'll have to agree to disagree on the practicality of this issue.. which was a main point raised by Bill Still. It's not what you or I want, or what should or can be.. it's what can get done given the current political and economic system.

Likewise, thanks for yours. I think your observation underscores the primary difference between Bill Still and Ron Paul, Von Mises, and any number of Austrian economists. Bill Still is both a statist and a monetarist at his very core. He begins with the premise that the state must think in terms of "what can get done", employing the very central planning mindset that is now, I would argue, a fatal flaw in our current political and economic system. My view is that it should not be "fixed" (i.e., stop looking for state-imposed solutions to the economy, including a "gold standard"), and very much needs to be broken.

[MrWalker]

Couldnt the moderator split this thread up in two? One about Bill Still, and one about Steven Douglas and his personal ideas? Im only interested in the Bill Still part.

[whippoorwill]

"Men have chosen the precious metals gold and silver for the money service on account of their mineralogical, physical, and chemical features. The use of money in a market economy is a praxeologically necessary fact. That gold--and not something else--is used as money is merely a historical fact and as such cannot be conceived by catallactics. In monetary history too, as in all other branches of history, one must resort to historical understanding. If one takes pleasure in calling the gold standard a "barbarous relic,"[28] one cannot object to the application of the same term to every historically determined institution. Then the fact that the British speak English--and not Danish, German, or French--is a barbarous relic too, and every Briton who opposes the substitution of Esperanto for English is no less dogmatic and orthodox than those who do not wax rapturous about the plans for a managed currency." XVII. INDIRECT EXCHANGE: 19. The Gold Standard, Human Action -by Ludwig von Mises
http://mises.org/humanaction/chap17sec19.asp

[Steven Douglas]

Couldnt the moderator split this thread up in two? One about Bill Still, and one about Steven Douglas and his personal ideas? Im only interested in the Bill Still part.

Mr. Walker, the way it works is, we discuss and debate things that are on-topic in the same thread. Since my posts were on-topic, and were indeed all about Bill Still, what it seems you are really asking for is a thread that is pro-Bill Still only, wherein nobody disagrees with Bill Still's anti-gold, anti-Paul, anti-Von Mises pro-fiat currency position.

If it's just my personal opinions in general you're interested in not seeing, however, here is your equally personal solution (and the decidedly libertarian one at that):

1) Click on my name and click "View Profile" (or CLICK HERE for that same link)
2) From the menu on the left on that page, click "Add to Ignore List" (or CLICK HERE for that same link)
3) Confirm by clicking Yes when prompted.
4) Voila! Personal censorship filtering of all posts by Steven Douglas, with no more of your sensibilities offended by them.

Hope that helps.

[matt0611]

What are the barriers to using gold and silver right now?
(I know there are some I'm just trying to pin down what they are).

I know there are:

1. Federal and state capital gains tax when you exchange gold or silver.

2. State sales taxes?

3. Legal tender laws? (I know each FRN is legal tender but what does this mean in practice?) Can a merchant accept gold and silver for payment? Is anyone "forced" to accept FRNs?

4. I'm sure there would be all sorts of SEC problems with banks trying to set up accounts that held gold instead of dollars, same with debit and credit cards etc. I know Peter Schiff offers a gold debit card at his international EuroPacific Bank but not to Americans because of regulations.

5. Others?

[rhelwig]

What are the barriers to using gold and silver right now?
(I know there are some I'm just trying to pin down what they are).

I know there are:

1. Federal and state capital gains tax when you exchange gold or silver.

LOL

2. State sales taxes?

If you have to pay sales taxes, you'd pay them the same with an alternative currency - just add it on.

3. Legal tender laws? (I know each FRN is legal tender but what does this mean in practice?) Can a merchant accept gold and silver for payment? Is anyone "forced" to accept FRNs?

Yes, you can accept anything you want, and can refuse to accept FRNs. The legal tender laws state "debts", and so if someone owes you money they can pay it with FRNs; but for regular sale type events you can use whatever.

4. I'm sure there would be all sorts of SEC problems with banks trying to set up accounts that held gold instead of dollars, same with debit and credit cards etc. I know Peter Schiff offers a gold debit card at his international EuroPacific Bank but not to Americans because of regulations.

That's why we shouldn't bother with even trying it here. Use bitcoins for digital/electronic transactions and Shire Silver for in-person anonymous transactions.

5. Others?

Education mostly. Most people don't care (and never will) about sound money so we need to make the business case. How does our supposedly better money actually improve their lives? And we need to defeat the gold-bug near-sightedness on spot price. They need to understand that you can't produce and sell a product (and money is a product) at the price the raw materials cost you. Any free market money needs to have an added value over the commodity its based on.

[Steven Douglas]

What are the barriers to using gold and silver right now?
(I know there are some I'm just trying to pin down what they are).

I know there are:

1. Federal and state capital gains tax when you exchange gold or silver.
2. State sales taxes?

Yes, and add local taxes, including personal property taxes, if applicable, and also markups from the "sales" of hard specie, rather than a simple direct monetary exchange.

3. Legal tender laws? (I know each FRN is legal tender but what does this mean in practice?) Can a merchant accept gold and silver for payment? Is anyone "forced" to accept FRNs?

Legal tender (and related) laws create a number of barriers to entry, but that gets obfuscated with strawman framing, like "forced at gunpoint to accept FRN's", which is not at issue. Legal tender for all debts (private) means that if someone tenders/offers you FRN's in the payment of a debt, and you refuse payment in that form of currency, your debt can be declared discharged by the courts, given that "legal tender" was offered and refused. So it's not a question of "We will force you at gunpoint to take it". It's more a case of "Accept this paper, or consider yourself screwed."

On the taxes and other public debts side, there is a monopoly on FRN's as the only medium that is acceptable to federal, state and local governments required for payment of taxes (with the exception now of Utah, which is gearing up for U.S. minted gold and silver coin. So it is impossible to "opt out" of the Fed's monopoly, because at some point you will be on pain of loss of life, liberty and/or property, coerced into valuing something relative to fiat currency, as well as "buying" legal tender to use as payment of public debts.

On the capital gains question (and even, to a lesser degree, the progressive graduated income tax) the government plays deliberately stupid as it rides both sides of value/price question. Any increase in price (in FRN's), including income, automatically equates to an increase in value (as in the case of a capital "gain"), even though it may only reflect a devaluation of the currency alone. The unwritten presumption is that the deliberately inflated currency is somehow a value constant of its own. Thus, a circulated silver dollar stuff in your mattress for 50 years is said to have appreciated in value , which is utter bullshit -- as we pay no attention to the real culprit; namely, the value depreciation of the Fed notes that "value" is reckoned by. That is a barrier to entry because, once again, it is punishing the holder of a currency or commodity that merely maintained its value. So you get taxed twice -- once when the fiat currency you hold is inflated, and once again for holding a currency that has not been inflated.

4. I'm sure there would be all sorts of SEC problems with banks trying to set up accounts that held gold instead of dollars, same with debit and credit cards etc. I know Peter Schiff offers a gold debit card at his international EuroPacific Bank but not to Americans because of regulations.

Yep, and that mountain of bureaucratic red tape and attendant fees is an ENORMOUS barrier to entry.

5. Others?

Yes, actually, as if any one of those wasn't enough. Here's a whopper: 18 USC § 486 - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money ... of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

So go ahead design your own palladium or platinum coin (or even zinc or bronze or copper), of your own design, with the intent that it start circulating alongside Fed notes and compete as "current money" is subject to fines and/or imprisonment. A GARGANTUAN barrier to entry. Technically, any of the creators of "community" money circulating as coinage is in violation of this statute. But it would be unpopular to prosecute, so our government takes a very Chinese "one eye opened, one eye closed" approach, while throwing the book at the creators of the Liberty Dollar for "counterfeiting", even though there was no intent to defraud, but rather to give people a way out of fraud.

[rhelwig]

Yes, actually, as if any one of those wasn't enough. Here's a whopper: 18 USC § 486 - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal



So go ahead design your own palladium or platinum coin (or even zinc or bronze or copper), of your own design, with the intent that it start circulating alongside Fed notes and compete as "current money" is subject to fines and/or imprisonment. A GARGANTUAN barrier to entry. Technically, any of the creators of "community" money circulating as coinage is in violation of this statute.

And this is another advantage of Shire Silver, as it is in no way a "coin". While I'm sure the gov/fed lawyers could stretch the definition of coin to include small ingots or bars of silver, the strips of silver and wires of gold embedded in Shire Silver cards are so far from being coins that no jury would convict.

[MrWalker]

Mr. Walker, the way it works is, we discuss and debate things that are on-topic in the same thread. Since my posts were on-topic, and were indeed all about Bill Still, what it seems you are really asking for is a thread that is pro-Bill Still only, wherein nobody disagrees with Bill Still's anti-gold, anti-Paul, anti-Von Mises pro-fiat currency position.

"Bill Still is leftist conspiracy theorist moron with a "libertarin-ISH" agenda from a far left fringe."

That was the first thing you wrote. It strongly discouraged me from reading the remaining.

If it's just my personal opinions in general you're interested in not seeing, however, here is your equally personal solution (and the decidedly libertarian one at that):

1) Click on my name and click "View Profile" (or CLICK HERE for that same link)
2) From the menu on the left on that page, click "Add to Ignore List" (or CLICK HERE for that same link)
3) Confirm by clicking Yes when prompted.
4) Voila! Personal censorship filtering of all posts by Steven Douglas, with no more of your sensibilities offended by them.

Hope that helps.

I forgot the level of egocentrism that you libertatians allow yourselves. You definetly cured me of any remaining libertarianism i had left.

[Steven Douglas]

I forgot the level of egocentrism that you libertatians allow yourselves. You definetly cured me of any remaining libertarianism i had left.

If that is all it took, then your 'libertarianism', as you put it, could not possibly have been rooted in principle to begin with. So here's to your cure, and my part in that; or, as Hannibal Lecter put it, "Best thing for him really, his therapy was going nowhere."