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Thread: Why government should always have more power than private business.

  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    Land is given by nature NOT by man. Land is NOT commonly created.

    You need to learn more about basic economics.
    I'm not studying economics, I'm desperately trying to understand your positions..

    I directly quote you then you tell me I'm wrong...

    Now instead of land being purchased (like so many have done) it is given...



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  3. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    Land is given by nature NOT by man.
    And who owns nature?
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.

  4. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    That is exactly what I was saying.
    But you want to hand all the power (in the form of resources) to government. History indicates that handing any power to government ends up being a terrible idea, so I'm not on board with that at all.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  5. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Read your own Geonomists on the consequences of LVT reforms. Proponents of Geonomics list these things but consider them good because Tribal people are not fully utilising their land, so it is good when they lose out to people who can use the land better.

    Besides its not like the Tribal people owned the land they were living for centuries or millennia. You can't 'own' land right. That's why you say it can't be seized.

    It just gets re-allocated to more efficient users or people with more efficient ties to the government.
    Sort of like we do here, with eminent domain? Take the land away from the homeowner and give it to the corporation that can use it to generate more revenue.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  6. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    What about folks who are extremely skilled and talented but have near zero ability to sell themselves or type up resumes or conduct powerful interviews?

    Perhaps the system is biased?
    There are a myriad of places that will help you gloss up resumes and the internet is full of interviews and articles about how to interview well. Dear God, I'm about as socially awkward as they come and I usually manage not to drool through an interview.

    People have posted resumes here and received great advice.

    There are jobs at the upper end of the scale that I will never get, because my personality isn't suited to do them. (I hate managing people. Stick me in an office with a bunch of papers and close the door already!) And there are others that I will never get because I didn't get a CPA or an advanced degree.

    But if I don't get a job that I am suited for because I had typos on my resume or didn't bother to do any homework on the company, then I really can only blame myself.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  7. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    Stop banging on about Marx you half-wit! An obsessive. David Harvey gave a lecture on how we ended up in the financial situation we are in. Nothing to do with Marx. It was factual observation by Harvey.
    Harvey is a Marxist. That automatically discredits him. As for your aassertion thata I reaad the YouTube comments on the rebuttal video...they're idiots. I don't have any interest in debating the internet, but if you'd like to post one you find especially succinct, we can happily address that on it's own merits.

    But as the author of the rebuttal video clearly points out:

    His entire argument can be debunked simply by looking at the Census data regarding income.

    The original video can be found here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0

    Citations:
    President's Economic Data:
    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/eop/2010/2010_erp.pdf

    Census Data:
    http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/incom...cal/index.html
    http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/incom...old/index.html

    Thomas Sowell Wisdom:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0MaY33LJZ0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Nuy_gbMtc
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  8. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Harvey is a Marxist. That automatically discredits him.
    Oh no! Not another brainwashed one. He accurately gave how the situation evolved to the fiancial crash. Prof Harvey never gave any solutions.

    Study some economics. It will help you.

    The author of the rebuttal video is a clear idiot.
    “I have made speeches by the yard on the subject
    of land-value taxation, and you know what a supporter
    I am of that policy.”

    - Winston Churchill


    The only war Winston Churchill ever lost was
    against the British landlords.

    - Fred Harrison (economic writer)

  9. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    But you want to hand all the power (in the form of resources) to government.
    Do I? New to me. I want exactly the opposite. Geonomics uses LVT as its core, which is merely a tax shift. No transfer of power. Those who extract natural resouces (common wealth) pay for it. Simple. Do do not need to think much about it either.
    “I have made speeches by the yard on the subject
    of land-value taxation, and you know what a supporter
    I am of that policy.”

    - Winston Churchill


    The only war Winston Churchill ever lost was
    against the British landlords.

    - Fred Harrison (economic writer)

  10. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwar View Post
    And who owns nature?
    No single man. Nature is common wealth within a sovereign state. Man never made it.
    “I have made speeches by the yard on the subject
    of land-value taxation, and you know what a supporter
    I am of that policy.”

    - Winston Churchill


    The only war Winston Churchill ever lost was
    against the British landlords.

    - Fred Harrison (economic writer)

  11. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    Those who extract natural resouces (common wealth) pay for it.
    How is something that is owned, "common wealth"?

    Whom do they pay?
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.

  12. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I directly quote you then you tell me I'm wrong...
    You misquote.

    Now instead of land being purchased (like so many have done) it is given...
    With Geonomics land ownerships stays the same. You can buy and sell as before. No change.
    “I have made speeches by the yard on the subject
    of land-value taxation, and you know what a supporter
    I am of that policy.”

    - Winston Churchill


    The only war Winston Churchill ever lost was
    against the British landlords.

    - Fred Harrison (economic writer)

  13. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    No single man. Nature is common wealth within a sovereign state. Man never made it.
    But man may claim it.
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.

  14. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwar View Post
    How is something that is owned, "common wealth"?

    Whom do they pay?
    You do not own the resources. You extract ores you pay the community. You extract oil you pay. This revenue from commonly owned natural resouces goes to paying common services leaving private wealth in private hands - no income tax, etc.
    “I have made speeches by the yard on the subject
    of land-value taxation, and you know what a supporter
    I am of that policy.”

    - Winston Churchill


    The only war Winston Churchill ever lost was
    against the British landlords.

    - Fred Harrison (economic writer)

  15. #194
    Member John F Kennedy III's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    So every street has a coin machine and turnstyle as you can walk down it? The army? Door to door collections? You pay the police for each call out?

    Get out of La-La land!!!!!
    La la land? Which one of us is voting for Obama in November? That's la la land.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    There would be riots in the streets, if boobus gave one shit about his honor.
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  16. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    You misquote.
    Come on kid, copy-n-paste really can't be screwed up even by an old fart...


    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    With Geonomics land ownerships stays the same. You can buy and sell as before. No change.
    Now just a minute ago you claimed that under this theory;

    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    You do not own the resources.
    Do you have an actual agenda or are you just stirring the pot?

  17. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    You do not own the resources. You extract ores you pay the community. You extract oil you pay. This revenue from commonly owned natural resouces goes to paying common services leaving private wealth in private hands - no income tax, etc.
    You own it if you are the first to claim it.

    Just like with homesteading. If you can demonstrate that you can stake claim to the resource, then it is yours. Now it is yours to either protect or develop.
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.

  18. #197

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    If we lived in a free, voluntary society, sure, someone should not have the right to take what belongs to others (you're asking a question that is dependent on society as it is today, whereas I am proposing a different kind of society, so this question is slightly missing the point). However, this simply is not the case. What is the case in today's world, and has been the case historically, is that a super-wealthy financial and political elite emerges by sheer virtue of claiming the means of production for themselves (the factories, fields, farms, offices, etc) and forcing everyone else (who do not own capital) to sell their labor in exchange for wages. Essentially (and what many people here seem to miss), these people have no choice but to sell their labor and time and body and mind to somebody else. And of course, you don't get the full value of your labor back, or else there would be no profit for the owner. So while your question proposes an interesting thought regarding a matter of principle, it is still trapped within the confines of society as it is today. So, for example, if we lived in a society in which the community decided how to invest extra capital, of course the workers would deserve equal power to control the company: they are the ones actually doing the work, after all!

    You're welcome for the legitimate response, now if you could be so kind as to answer my previous question. I will rephrase it for you: Would this Socialist average Joe be an effective co-owner of industry? Or is there a reason that his boss rose thru the division of labor and became an owner of the company; in short, is he capable? Would this Socialist worker care enough about a company he has invested nothing in; in short, is he willing?

    You say elite's "claim the means of production". This is not theft - it is a voluntary process - as anyone who can save capital and innovate can become an owner of production - also they have earned the right to keep their business by virtue of voluntary exchange, by providing others in the economy with a product/service at a cost effective price - not by force. However, the government you advocate calls for theft and non-voluntary barriers on the free market.

    Again, this sounds great but is just not true in reality. These options are not really available to most people. For one, something like 9 out of 10 new businesses fail because nobody can compete with giant corporations. And few people have time or money to learn new skills (if you're working 50 hours a week to barely scrape by and raising three kids, how the hell are you supposed to find time or money to just learn new skills?). Also, for the most part, almost nobody in America "moves up" as a result of their own "hard work." In fact, most people are "moving down" right now into lower classes. We cannot seriously say that this because everyone is becoming lazier. The only "beauty" of the "free market" is that it's incredibly rigged against the "little guy" in favor of a wealthy and powerful elite. It has always been that way.

    You blame the Free Market and not the Government for the American living standard?

    What service has the government provided us recently?

    Foreign wars. Drug wars - mass incarceration. Inefficient government spending. High inflation. Trillions in debt.

    The Division of labor is competitive: for good reason. if you had three children before learning a skill, this is how you choose to live your life: You choose children over a skill. Is this right or is this wrong? It's subjective, it depends on that individuals values. As far as being busy goes, I work full time and I am a student, but I read books on Economics on my break at work: this is how I have gained the knowledge to refute your Socialist claims. Skill aquired, despite a busy life, it is indeed possible.

    Now if a person wishes to live life with the ammenities the free market has to offer they must be productive. If one wishes to live off of unemployment and other welfare programs, they have the choice to be unproductive and live in uncomfort. Still, this is a choice - you are not a slave. I think I have clearly proven that fact.

    Here, again, your response is trapped in the framework of the market, which is the very thing I'm critiquing (at least, at the moment) so this isn't really saying much. I could just as easily say the price of labor is determined by whatever the king says it is, or whatever the community decides is fair, or whatever the workers themselves vote on, etc etc. See where I'm getting at?

    The workers do vote on their wages:

    The price of labor is determined by the productivity the job has on the market: this is done thru subjective (guesses) of both the workers and the employers, respectively. My response is "trapped" in the framework of reality, my friend. You are the one trying to prove to me that your Socialist dream land will succeed.

    That's sorta what I'm saying. If it were not for the split of profits between the owners and the workers, the workers would get paid for what they produce. If you build a car and sell it for $5000, you get $5000. If you build a car for a capitalist and he sells it for $5000, you do not get $5000, but whatever the capitalist says is fair, or whatever the "market" says your labor is worth (which, again, is completely arbitrary). But ultimately, whose labor built the car?

    Labor and Capital built the car: not labor alone. (Again, you are only focusing on labor - not the entire economy)

    If a worker gets 100% of the profits, there is no incentive for a capitalist to build a car: no reward for his risk of capital. If you want a shortages of cars, your policies are a brilliant fit.

    Again, if we lived in a society in which nobody could claim the means of production all for themselves and force everyone else to sell their labor or starve, this would not be an issue, i.e., there would not be a split between super-wealthy financial elites (today's owner/investor class) and the mostly poor and powerless workers (today's working/middle class.) There would just be people, voluntarily producing and sharing as equals.

    Let me guess: We should create a massive government built on Theft and stop the Natural, Voluntary Exchange of the Free Market by banning private ownership of production!

    You have done it my friend! You have created a Free, and Voluntary society. You have won the arguement! Truth is on your side!


    DEBUNKED
    Last edited by VoluntaryAmerican; 08-07-2012 at 12:18 PM.

  19. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Honorable_Doug View Post
    In fact, there are literally limitless ways we could organize an economy, and this is easily found in the countless tribes and cultures studied by anthropologists.
    I think the biggest problem with that statement is the premise that "we" can organize an economy. Economies only fail when central planners intervene.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  20. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    Do I? New to me. I want exactly the opposite. Geonomics uses LVT as its core, which is merely a tax shift. No transfer of power. Those who extract natural resouces (common wealth) pay for it. Simple. Do do not need to think much about it either.
    I do not believe in a common wealth. I also don't believe in natural rights or social contracts.

    What about resources like sunlight and water?
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  21. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    Oh no! Not another brainwashed one. He accurately gave how the situation evolved to the fiancial crash. Prof Harvey never gave any solutions.

    Study some economics. It will help you.

    The author of the rebuttal video is a clear idiot.
    This man teaches Marx at a college level, but I'm the brainwashed one?

    You're a funny little man. I can pretty much guarantee you that I've studied more economics than you, and I have a piece of paper to prove it. I sat through plenty of Marx-based economic theory before I knew what it was, but was able to "sense" something was wrong with the premise even though I had to study a little more to determine exactly what those things were.

    The author gave you pages of government numbers to refute the assertions in the video, and all you can do is call him names. It appears that your position isn't supported by much, is it?
    Last edited by angelatc; 08-07-2012 at 11:59 AM.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  22. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    What about folks who are extremely skilled and talented but have near zero ability to sell themselves or type up resumes or conduct powerful interviews?

    Perhaps the system is biased?
    The Free Market is not a "System", it is the natural state of man.

    Hire someone to write your resume.

    Hire someone to train you in interviewing skills: read a book on interviewing process, communication skills.
    Last edited by VoluntaryAmerican; 08-07-2012 at 12:42 PM.

  23. #202
    Member bxm042's Avatar
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    Government is just a corporation that has a monopoly on force. So if you think corporations are bad, think about giving a corporation the monopoly on force, and then you have government
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
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  24. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    Government is just a corporation that has a monopoly on force. So if you think corporations are bad, think about giving a corporation the monopoly on force, and then you have government
    This^^ The Constitution is a corporate charter.
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  25. #204
    Something, something, something...Whatever my rage for the day.

  26. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    Land is given by nature NOT by man. Land is NOT commonly created. Land and its resources are Commonwealth. Simple. Make a washing machine (CAPITAL made by man) and man owns it. Land ownership is "title", a set of rights. You do not actually "own" the land. You need title of keep others off the land while you use it. The values in the land are created by community economic actity, not the landower. That is economic fact. That is how the land values came about, they never came from the sky. Your house does not improve in value. The house (CAPITAL) is the wood and bricks and depreciates over time. The land appreciates.

    You need to learn more about basic economics.
    You never did explain why towns that have plenty of infrastructure and people, but no businesses left have low land values.

    Shouldn't Ghost Towns generate tonnes of Land Tax Revenue if infrastructure and community creates wealth?
    Stop the Looting and Start Prosecuting! Gold plated Tungsten IS Money!
    We Must Dissent A colher não existe.
    A government is just a body of people, notably, usually, ungoverned.

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  27. #206
    Member MelissaWV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    You are obviously well practiced in head in the sand burying. How does it feel?
    That's so strange the way two different posters answer me interchangably with almost the same style and such.

    It couldn't be multiple accounts. That would be against forum guidelines.
    May the wings of liberty never lose a feather.

  28. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by VoluntaryAmerican View Post
    The Free Market is not a "System", it is the natural state of man.

    Hire someone to write your resume.

    Hire someone to train you in interviewing skills: read a book on interviewing process, communication skills.
    Or get/create a job that requires neither a resume nor an interview.
    May the wings of liberty never lose a feather.

  29. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoWarrier View Post
    Land is given by nature NOT by man.
    That sounds real nice in happy hippie eco land but in the real world land can be bought and sold just like any other form of property.

  30. #209

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    The problem here is when big business buys out the government. Sound familiar? Regulations can be created to favor the big capital in order to suppress the little guy.
    Indianensis Universitatis Alumnus

  31. #210

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    The whole premise of the OP is based on a so-called fact that "unemployment is high" and its "tough to find a job" thus you're indirectly FORCED to work under said Boss.

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