Why government should always have more power than private business.

[The_Honorable_Doug]

Hi,

So let's say I'm a worker for a business. At this business, as it goes in a typical capitalist society, I am in a subordinate position to the boss, who is the representative of the ultimate owners (i.e., the investors who own the business.)

As a worker, I am unable to participate in any decisions regarding the operations of this business: not over sales, not over pay, not over hours, not anything. Maybe the boss gives me a little say, but, for the most part, the boss holds the power. This business is structured as an authoritarian hierarchy, in which power only flows from the top down, and not the bottom up. The workers below are dependent on the owners above for salary, and thus for their food, shelter, health, education, everything needed to live.

As a worker, I cannot go anywhere else: unemployment is very high, and I, lacking any way to provide for myself otherwise (I don't own a factory, or land, or have any access to money), must sell my labor to the business owner or else my children will starve. Fundamentally, I work on their terms only.

Now let's say that this business begins to take in record profits for the investors. (My co-workers and I are the ones doing all of the useful labor, but remember: we have no say how the profits are split.)

Now let's say that this business says to my co-workers and me, "We want to increase profits even more. This is a business, right? All workers must take a 50% pay cut. Oh, and we are cutting health benefits too. The workload will be the same, but we, the owners and investors, want an even bigger share of the profit pie. Actually, we'd like you to work 10 hours a day instead of 8. If you don't like it, go starve in the streets."

You see now that we have a situation in which power is (vastly) asymmetrically distributed between the workers and the owners. Andthe investors, clearly, in this case, are abusing the workers.

(From this situation, things get even worse for the overall economy: The workers are underpaid and, as a class, are unable to match their production value with their purchasing power (if every business owner pays theirs workers 1 "unit of value" (UOV) to produce 2 UOV's, we approach a situation of over-production and then all kinds of messes ensue (the owners can only spend so much of their money on luxury goods and re-investment. Sometimes, they even promote foreign wars to open new markets for all the over-produced goods. This is a component of imperialism. But for the most part, the investor class has been hoarding money in off-shore accounts, somewhere between $21 and $32 trillion, actually, on a global scale.)

Anyway, back to the workers.

So what are we supposed to do? We could:

1) Start a union, in which case we all get fired immediately
2) Go on strike, in which case we all get fired immediately. The owners will turn armed guards on us if they need to (this has happened thousands of times in history.)
3) We could encourage a consumer boycott, which is not going to work.
4) We could smash and sabotage the workplace, in which case we all go to jail.

OR

5) We could appeal to a higher authority, that is, the government, the ultimate voice of the community.

___

Look, it's nice to live in this fantasy world where government is always bad and private businessmen somehow incorruptible, but the truth is that businessmen and investors, who are only concerned about turning bigger and bigger profits, would pay their workers nothing if they could get away with it (what is wage-slavery but another form of (legitimate) slavery? A worker isn't free, after all, and just like a slave, you have to pay for the basics: food, shelter, health, etc.)

This is why we need a stronger government: it is the sphere of democracy, in which (theoretically) all citizens can participate as equals, unlike in a private business, where workers are subordinated to the interests of the investors/owners/bosses. In this case, the government can step in to prevent the workers from abuse, if they are unable to do so themselves.

Thoughts?

[Also, by the way, this dispute is happening right now with Caterpillar. In fact, it happens with mosts businesses. The best way to raise profits for yourself is to pay your workers less and work them longer, harder hours, and the business owners have been doing that to working people for decades now.)

[TheTexan]

You forgot option 5) go work for someone else, or yourself.

[tod evans]

More government is NEVER the answer.

Right now in this economy it is an employers wet-dream.....way more folks looking for work than there are available jobs..

You and I are not entitled to receive money for breathing, neither are we entitled to receive more than the market will bear by force of government.

If you don't like your job then learn another, if you're replaceable by any body off the street learn skills everybody doesn't have.

[The_Honorable_Doug]

While unemployment is high? While nobody is hiring? What if every business treats their workers poorly? That's not a legitimate option. It's like saying to a slave, "well, go be a slave for someone else then!"

[TheTexan]

While unemployment is high? While nobody is hiring? What if every business treats their workers poorly? That's not a legitimate option. It's like saying to a slave, "well, go be a slave for someone else then!"

a) Unemployment is high because of all the government intervention in the first place, more intervention will just make this worse
b) Companies are hiring, maybe you just don't have any skills. The company I work for is definitely hiring
c) If you don't want to get skills that make you valuable, then work for yourself. You'll be a lot happier that way.

If I lost my job tomorrow I could get another one the next day. I have also successfully worked for myself, and could do that as I like. I am a slave to nobody except death and taxes

[tod evans]

While unemployment is high? While nobody is hiring? What if every business treats their workers poorly? That's not a legitimate option. It's like saying to a slave, "well, go be a slave for someone else then!"

Poor world view......

You put yourself in the "employee" category...

Put yourself in the "employer" category...

If you absolutely believe you MUST be an employee learn skills that make you invaluable to "The-Company".

[The_Honorable_Doug]

When you say "more government," what you're really saying is "more community." You believe that businessmen and investors should be allowed to just do whatever they want, regardless of what the community says (even if they say, "Hey! We don't abuse our workers in this country!"

Maybe if the businessmen don't want the community telling them what to do, maybe THEY should go somewhere else! Hahahaha!

[TheTexan]

When you say "more government," what you're really saying is "more community." You believe that businessmen and investors should be allowed to just do whatever they want, regardless of what the community says (even if they say, "Hey! We don't abuse our workers in this country!"

In a free market, the community can sue the company. With all these regulations, suing a company is virtually impossible, if not entirely impossible due to government protections.

But not giving you the wage you'd like to have is not "abuse"

[Origanalist]

This is why we need a stronger government: it is the sphere of democracy, in which (theoretically) all citizens can participate as equals, unlike in a private business, where workers are subordinated to the interests of the investors/owners/bosses. In this case, the government can step in to prevent the workers from abuse, if they are unable to do so themselves.

Thoughts?

First off, democracy has multiple drawbacks. Mob rule usually ends up just like it sounds.

Second, whatever powers you give to the government to "help" you are going to be used to control you. Bank on it.

[Dr.3D]

When you say "more government," what you're really saying is "more community." You believe that businessmen and investors should be allowed to just do whatever they want, regardless of what the community says (even if they say, "Hey! We don't abuse our workers in this country!"

Maybe if the businessmen don't want the community telling them what to do, maybe THEY should go somewhere else! Hahahaha!

If you mean government (community), then that is exactly what they have been doing. They move their business outside of the country to avoid government regulations.

[MJU1983]

Hi,

So let's say I'm a worker for a business. At this business, as it goes in a typical capitalist society, I am in a subordinate position to the boss, who is the representative of the ultimate owners (i.e., the investors who own the business.)

As a worker, I am unable to participate in any decisions regarding the operations of this business: not over sales, not over pay, not over hours, not anything. Maybe the boss gives me a little say, but, for the most part, the boss holds the power. This business is structured as an authoritarian hierarchy, in which power only flows from the top down, and not the bottom up. The workers below are dependent on the owners above for salary, and thus for their food, shelter, health, education, everything needed to live.

As a worker, I cannot go anywhere else: unemployment is very high, and I, lacking any way to provide for myself otherwise (I don't own a factory, or land, or have any access to money), must sell my labor to the business owner or else my children will starve. Fundamentally, I work on their terms only.

Now let's say that this business begins to take in record profits for the investors. (My co-workers and I are the ones doing all of the useful labor, but remember: we have no say how the profits are split.)

Now let's say that this business says to my co-workers and me, "We want to increase profits even more. This is a business, right? All workers must take a 50% pay cut. Oh, and we are cutting health benefits too. The workload will be the same, but we, the owners and investors, want an even bigger share of the profit pie. Actually, we'd like you to work 10 hours a day instead of 8. If you don't like it, go starve in the streets."

You see now that we have a situation in which power is (vastly) asymmetrically distributed between the workers and the owners. Andthe investors, clearly, in this case, are abusing the workers.

(From this situation, things get even worse for the overall economy: The workers are underpaid and, as a class, are unable to match their production value with their purchasing power (if every business owner pays theirs workers 1 "unit of value" (UOV) to produce 2 UOV's, we approach a situation of over-production and then all kinds of messes ensue (the owners can only spend so much of their money on luxury goods and re-investment. Sometimes, they even promote foreign wars to open new markets for all the over-produced goods. This is a component of imperialism. But for the most part, the investor class has been hoarding money in off-shore accounts, somewhere between $21 and $32 trillion, actually, on a global scale.)

Anyway, back to the workers.

So what are we supposed to do? We could:

1) Start a union, in which case we all get fired immediately
2) Go on strike, in which case we all get fired immediately. The owners will turn armed guards on us if they need to (this has happened thousands of times in history.)
3) We could encourage a consumer boycott, which is not going to work.
4) We could smash and sabotage the workplace, in which case we all go to jail.

OR

5) We could appeal to a higher authority, that is, the government, the ultimate voice of the community.

___

Look, it's nice to live in this fantasy world where government is always bad and private businessmen somehow incorruptible, but the truth is that businessmen and investors, who are only concerned about turning bigger and bigger profits, would pay their workers nothing if they could get away with it (what is wage-slavery but another form of (legitimate) slavery? A worker isn't free, after all, and just like a slave, you have to pay for the basics: food, shelter, health, etc.)

This is why we need a stronger government: it is the sphere of democracy, in which (theoretically) all citizens can participate as equals, unlike in a private business, where workers are subordinated to the interests of the investors/owners/bosses. In this case, the government can step in to prevent the workers from abuse, if they are unable to do so themselves.

Thoughts?

[Also, by the way, this dispute is happening right now with Caterpillar. In fact, it happens with mosts businesses. The best way to raise profits for yourself is to pay your workers less and work them longer, harder hours, and the business owners have been doing that to working people for decades now.)

The agreement between yourself and the business owner is voluntary, no one is forcing you to be there. If conditions are so terrible no one, yourself included, will work there until conditions improve.

Once you add "government" to the mix really all you are doing is promoting violent interactions instead of voluntary ones. All government has is threats, theft, coercion, and guns in order to get their way.

[tod evans]

When you say "more government," what you're really saying is "more community." You believe that businessmen and investors should be allowed to just do whatever they want, regardless of what the community says (even if they say, "Hey! We don't abuse our workers in this country!"

Maybe if the businessmen don't want the community telling them what to do, maybe THEY should go somewhere else! Hahahaha!

Nooo,

It was you who brought up the idea of the government intervening on your behalf in the beef you have with a (potential?) employer.

My statements are both logical and truthful.

I do not believe "businessmen and investors should be allowed to just do whatever they want" , neither do I believe that running to "The-Government" is an effective way to negotiate employment.

[MelissaWV]

When you say "more government," what you're really saying is "more community." You believe that businessmen and investors should be allowed to just do whatever they want, regardless of what the community says (even if they say, "Hey! We don't abuse our workers in this country!"

Maybe if the businessmen don't want the community telling them what to do, maybe THEY should go somewhere else! Hahahaha!

You are definitely new here.

If there is actual abuse, by a company or a person or an inanimate carbon rod, then by all means pursue a charge against the person doing the abusing. I have a hunch that your definition of "abuse" also includes paying you less than you want, or calling you a mean name.

If someone is paying you less than you think you are worth, then there are some possibilities:

1. You are overvaluing yourself. You have skills that are not as in demand, or perhaps just no realistic comparison methodology by which you can figure out what kind of pay scale you should expect. Maybe you are also in a field where there are other desperate individuals driving down the worth of your position.

2. Your company is screwing you over. If you try to force them NOT to screw you over, you will be wasting time and energy for which you will still not be compensated, and likely contribute to the company doing poorly in the longrun. This is bad for both you and the company. Why would someone stay in that situation rather than move on to a self-employment opportunity? Oh wait... you had excuses...

While unemployment is high? While nobody is hiring? What if every business treats their workers poorly? That's not a legitimate option. It's like saying to a slave, "well, go be a slave for someone else then!"

Unemployment is high. Perhaps it's high mostly because human beings have begun to see leeching as preferable to adaptation. Oddly enough, I work two jobs, one of which involves a field for which there are too few qualified workers. No one recruited me for this, no one pointed out some article on a website regarding this "hot" field, and I did not go seeking out certifications or degrees to make me suited to the task; I merely did my research, made some contacts, and dove in.

People are, in fact, hiring. If you go to any city on Indeed.com, you will never come up empty. If you call your local temp agency, they will almost certainly have jobs available. If you drive past restaurants or fast food places, you will often see "NOW HIRING" displayed in their window. These are only the published jobs, and for each of those there are several which never get published anymore. Companies are annoyed at the fact that desperate out of work people are flinging their resume at any job these days, regardless of whether or not they qualify. It is seriously a waste of everyone's time for an out of work computer programmer to apply to be a home health RN.

If you are going to argue that every business treats their employees poorly, then you either need to work for yourself, or you need to reassess what your definition of "poorly" is, right along with the "abuse" we talked about earlier. You do not have a God-given right to be treated with kid gloves, then paid for it, regardless of the outcome or product you put forth.

The slave is property, and owned by the master. The slave cannot "go be a slave for someone else." That isn't even what we are telling you. We are telling you to own yourself. You are the one saying that a corporate master is so awful that you long for new chains from the Government instead.

[idiom]

I don't want to work. I don't want to learn. I don't want to start a business and be productive. I don't want to move somewhere with work. I don't want to suffer at all.

Please tell me about how the evil people who start businesses and work day and night and risk everything owe me a cut.

But for the most part, the investor class has been hoarding money in off-shore accounts, somewhere between $21 and $32 trillion, actually, on a global scale.

This is 100% the because of the government protecting fraudulent companies. It is not safe to invest in the USA because the government *will* steal your investment. Nobody will invest while the government props up zombie corporations.

[The_Honorable_Doug]

There are too many responses here for me to reply to each individual one, but keep this in mind:

The contract between worker and owner in this country is, nine times out of ten, not voluntary. You think the single mother working at Wal-Mart for the minimum wage at 3 am wants to do that? Of course not. The owners (the Walton family) were born into a position of massive wealth and power, and the poor workers were born into a position of poverty and powerlessness. We do not get a "fair shot" in this country, not even remotely, and I think you'd have to be a fool (or so privileged you can't see beyond it) to argue otherwise.

Also, the list of "threats, theft, coercion, and guns" basically sums up what the owners do to preserve their power (see: every labor strike in American history, the corporate control of government, the media, etc.)

[TheTexan]

I don't want to work. I don't want to learn. I don't want to start a business and be productive. I don't want to move somewhere with work. I don't want to suffer at all.

Please tell me about how the evil people who start businesses and work day and night and risk everything owe me a cut.

This

[idiom]

There are too many responses here for me to reply to each individual one, but keep this in mind:

The contract between worker and owner in this country is, nine times out of ten, not voluntary. You think the single mother working at Wal-Mart for the minimum wage at 3 am wants to do that? Of course not. The owners (the Walton family) were born into a position of massive wealth and power, and the poor workers were born into a position of poverty and powerlessness. We do not get a "fair shot" in this country, not even remotely, and I think you'd have to be a fool (or so privileged you can't see beyond it) to argue otherwise.

Also, the list of "threats, theft, coercion, and guns" basically sums up what the owners do to preserve their power (see: every labor strike in American history, the corporate control of government, the media, etc.)

The Waltons derive a huge amount of their power from the government in one way or another. Otherwise they would be pulled to pieces in an open market.

[The_Honorable_Doug]

Also! I don't think you all understand the key point here: what I am describing is the fundamental antagonism of all capitalist societies, that between the worker and the owner and who holds power, how to split the profit, etc. This scenario I described is really happening right now: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1179098.html

And this has happened continuously without pause at businesses throughout history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_h..._United_States

[MelissaWV]

There are too many responses here for me to reply to each individual one, but keep this in mind:

The contract between worker and owner in this country is, nine times out of ten, not voluntary. You think the single mother working at Wal-Mart for the minimum wage at 3 am wants to do that? Of course not. The owners (the Walton family) were born into a position of massive wealth and power, and the poor workers were born into a position of poverty and powerlessness. We do not get a "fair shot" in this country, not even remotely, and I think you'd have to be a fool (or so privileged you can't see beyond it) to argue otherwise.

Also, the list of "threats, theft, coercion, and guns" basically sums up what the owners do to preserve their power (see: every labor strike in American history, the corporate control of government, the media, etc.)

You're right. She probably doesn't want to be at work for min wage at 3am. Hopefully that's a temporary thing that inspires her to find something better to do. There are a $#@!load of really great stories of people who lift themselves out of poverty with a bit of luck, a great idea, a lot of hard work, etc.. There are also a lot of people who never get out of that rut. The idea that I should have my money stolen from me to go support WalMart and a bunch of bailouts and a lot of bloated Government programs, rather than contribute directly to this poor soul, is your idea. Not mine.

[tod evans]

There are too many responses here for me to reply to each individual one, but keep this in mind:

The contract between worker and owner in this country is, nine times out of ten, not voluntary. You think the single mother working at Wal-Mart for the minimum wage at 3 am wants to do that? Of course not. The owners (the Walton family) were born into a position of massive wealth and power, and the poor workers were born into a position of poverty and powerlessness. We do not get a "fair shot" in this country, not even remotely, and I think you'd have to be a fool (or so privileged you can't see beyond it) to argue otherwise.

Also, the list of "threats, theft, coercion, and guns" basically sums up what the owners do to preserve their power (see: every labor strike in American history, the corporate control of government, the media, etc.)

Geeze dude,

You're right ol' Sam Walton owes you and your heirs a substantial portion of his fortune just because you're able to suck air and type on the internet...

Good ol' BO is still offering free money too......

[The_Honorable_Doug]

But only because they have corrupted government. Workers could just as easily seize the government for themselves (through elections or revolution or buying influence). Government is fundamentally an empty field. It's where we come together to make public decisions. Today, however, powerful businesses, giant corporations, banks, etc, run the government.

[idiom]

When you say "more government," what you're really saying is "more community." You believe that businessmen and investors should be allowed to just do whatever they want, regardless of what the community says (even if they say, "Hey! We don't abuse our workers in this country!"

Maybe if the businessmen don't want the community telling them what to do, maybe THEY should go somewhere else! Hahahaha!

Pretty much guarantee at this point that Doug's solution to this imbalance is implementation of Lebensraum Value Tax-Shift.

Despite the fact that America is nearly entirely a service economy and no longer uses local resources to sustain it.

[idiom]

Stephenie Meyer
J. K. Rowling
Oprah Winfrey

Women who had nothing and worked their way to billionaire status because they found avenues where the government did not restrict their advancement.

[The_Honorable_Doug]

You're right. She probably doesn't want to be at work for min wage at 3am. Hopefully that's a temporary thing that inspires her to find something better to do. There are a $#@!load of really great stories of people who lift themselves out of poverty with a bit of luck, a great idea, a lot of hard work, etc.. There are also a lot of people who never get out of that rut. The idea that I should have my money stolen from me to go support WalMart and a bunch of bailouts and a lot of bloated Government programs, rather than contribute directly to this poor soul, is your idea. Not mine.

Where did I suggest that I steal your money? I said that government should have more power than a private business. This is true for many reasons (especially environmental. Who owns the sky?) But in this case I wanted to discuss the relationship between the (subordinate) worker and the (dominant) owner.

[TheTexan]

I have marketable skills and get treated like a king where I work. My boss is one of the hardest working people I know, and I have a great deal of respect for him.

I am not "lucky" or in a "lucky field." I have worked hard and made good decisions in my life. It's not too late for you to do the same.

[Chester Copperpot]

You seem to forget govt has already taken 50% of your money and there is no escape... (you said you wanted to sell YOUR labor.. the govt says you dont even own your labor)

[MelissaWV]

Where did I suggest that I steal your money? I said that government should have more power than a private business. This is true for many reasons (especially environmental. Who owns the sky?) But in this case I wanted to discuss the relationship between the (subordinate) worker and the (dominant) owner.

Oh so you'd stop taxes, but still have a Government? Who's paying for that Government...

[MJU1983]

There are too many responses here for me to reply to each individual one, but keep this in mind:

The contract between worker and owner in this country is, nine times out of ten, not voluntary. You think the single mother working at Wal-Mart for the minimum wage at 3 am wants to do that? Of course not. The owners (the Walton family) were born into a position of massive wealth and power, and the poor workers were born into a position of poverty and powerlessness. We do not get a "fair shot" in this country, not even remotely, and I think you'd have to be a fool (or so privileged you can't see beyond it) to argue otherwise.

Also, the list of "threats, theft, coercion, and guns" basically sums up what the owners do to preserve their power (see: every labor strike in American history, the corporate control of government, the media, etc.)

I face-palmed in real life so here are some pics in lieu of words:

[idiom]

Where did I suggest that I steal your money? I said that government should have more power than a private business. This is true for many reasons (especially environmental. Who owns the sky?) But in this case I wanted to discuss the relationship between the (subordinate) worker and the (dominant) owner.

Nearly all employers were employees at some point. Even the Employers are employees of their customers. Go run a business and then discuss how dominant employers are.

You are only paying attention to successful employers. Their are many times more unsuccessful employers who risk and lose *everything* trying to create jobs.

[The_Honorable_Doug]

Stephenie Meyer
J. K. Rowling
Oprah Winfrey

Women who had nothing and worked their way to billionaire status because they found avenues where the government did not restrict their advancement.

You're already distracting from my original point. Of course there are an exceptional few who "work their way up" but for most people this is not a possible option. And besides, where would we all go? There is limited room "on top" in a capitalist society.