We Urgently Need To Revert To Classical Economics

[Roy L]

Substitute public for private, and out of your own words you are denounced:

No, those are now your words, not mine, and they are of course just stupid, evil lies. Stop lying.

It's true that greedy, evil, parasitic public rent seekers,

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT. Lie. Unlike the private appropriation of publicly created land rent, the public recovery of PUBLICLY CREATED land rent is not parasitic, because the economic advantages the rent is paid for COME FROM the services and infrastructure government provides and the opportunities and amenities the community provides -- i.e., FROM THE PUBLIC -- not from the nothing the private landowner provides.

Strike One.

being the vicious, cowardly filth that they are, will always try to use the state to create and enforce their rent seeking privileges to rob and enslave the honest and productive.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT. Another lie. Paying land rent does not and cannot enslave the honest and productive, because it is a voluntary, market-based, value-for-value transaction. The honest and productive pay the same land rent either way (except that under LVT + UIE, they don't have to pay it up to the exempt amount). The difference with LVT is that they don't ALSO have to pay taxes on their productive economic activities in order to support a wealthy, greedy, idle, privileged, parasitic landowning class. They no longer have to pay for government TWICE in order to enable landowners to pocket one of the payments in return for nothing. LVT therefore indisputably RELEASES the honest and productive from their part-time slavery as taxpayers, liberating them from bitter bondage -- and that's aside from the universal individual exemption, which makes them ABSOLUTELY FREE to use land without paying anyone else anything, ever -- a liberty they can never enjoy under the system of landowner privilege and parasitism.

STRIKE TWO.

Yep. LVT, and you, to a tee.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT. Another stupid, evil lie, as proved above.

That's Strike Three, pumpkin. You're Out.

I am thoroughly convinced that you would not have been opposed in principle to slavery or slave ownership prior to its abolition, any more than you are opposed in principle to private landownership or rent-seeking behavior now.

I guess that depends on what your definition of "in principle" is. If slave title deeds no longer enabled their owners to compel the labor of "their" slaves by force, or otherwise remove their rights without making just compensation (like the "slaves" in high school "Slave Days" -- do they still have those?), then they would be an empty shell rather than an actual privilege, like private land title deeds under full public rent recovery, and the injustice would be gone. It's true that I don't waste my time and energy opposing empty formalisms when there is so much genuine evil, injustice and oppression to oppose.

So maybe you are right -- if by opposing slavery "in principle" you mean opposing high school Slave Days.

That isn't your concern at all.

Lie. I have consistently opposed all privileges that stimulate rent seeking behavior (which public recovery of publicly created land rents does not), as it is wasteful.

You would accept slave ownership in principle then,

High school Slave Days.

just as you accept landownership in principle now,

Lie. I have proved many times that land cannot rightly be owned, so STOP LYING about what I have plainly written. Ownership in principle must include all four basic property rights -- exclusive possession, control of use, benefit, and disposition -- and I do not accept the latter two of those rights wrt private land titles.

your only concern centering around the notion of "just compensation" and equal (socialized) public access to "unearned" wealth.

Lie. Stop lying about what I have plainly written, and explained to you very clearly and patiently many times.

[Roy L]

Let's just put what you believe back up on the big screen again, all stripped nekkid so everyone can see:

Justice cannot exist without community property rights in what the community produces. - Roy LVT Hive Manifesto

It is indisputable fact. If the community has no property right in the value it produces, it will be taken by someone who didn't produce it (i.e., in practice, landowners). They will get something for nothing, while the community that produced the value will get nothing for something. That is by definition not justice.

It's nighttime, soldier ant, and I think I hear your queen calling. Shouldn't you be herding and milking caterpillars, or fast asleep in a dirt mound somewhere?

Evil, dishonest filth beneath contempt.

[EcoWarrier]

I do not believe in community property rights or taxes. And land belongs to whoever is on it first.

Land belongs to the state. They have sovereignty. You have title deeds - a set of rights.

Understand how values came about in land. The landowner never made them - the community did. LVT leaves land ownership alone. LVT does not tax the property on the land (the buildings - Capital), it reclaims the community created economic growth that soaked into the land crystallizing as land values. Realistically it does NOT tax the land or buildings on it.

If men can claim land, given by nature, can they claim the air we breathe as well, which is given by nature? Can they claim the oceans?

In ye olden tymes, you only occupied land if you made full productive use of it, otherwise it went back to the community. Then no one can hoard land and speculate and manipulate land markets - making money for doing nothing. But LVT say keep the land, stay on it. We reclaim our community created value, even on unused land. So the speculators cannot leave land for 20 years to drive up land values they cream off by doing NOTHING.

LVT is a brilliantly elegant solution that appeals to all. Oh BTW, it also eliminates Income Tax.

[EcoWarrier]

Under a strict Lockean or Rothbardian definition of property rights, the ONLY way to own land is to USE it. This is called homesteading. If you use it you own it. If not, others can homestead it. Others cannot use what is already in use. Does this make sense to you or am I just typing for my keyboard?

I am sure Roy full understands that. So what you are advocating is a Feudal system.

Being just a tax shift, LVT leaves all alone. Land ownership stays the same. If you want to own 50 acres on the edge of city hoping the city will expand and your land's value increased 100-fold, then do it. But you pay a levy on that land by its value, whether a building is on it or not, or whether crops or on it or not. Currently landowners pay ZERO. Currently, Mr Big-Moneybags can land bank to his hearts content and hold land back inside cities that could otherwise be used for the people in the city. LVT will make him use the land productively or finacially make him sell to someone who does.

Then Mr Big-Moneybags can spend his money on doing soemthing productive and use some enterprise.

Harmful land speculation is stopped. Parasites are rolled back. Money and effort is used for productive uses.

[EcoWarrier]

No such thing. Communities and societies don't exist.

Maybe in la-la land they do not.

Man is a social animal and always grouped from the beginning of time.

[EcoWarrier]

It is indisputable fact. If the community has no property right in the value it produces, it will be taken by someone who didn't produce it (i.e., in practice, landowners). They will get something for nothing, while the community that produced the value will get nothing for something. That is by definition not justice.

Spot on!

[Steven Douglas]

OK, Roy, EcoWarrier(sic), I've read enough of your geodrivel.

I vote no.

[EcoWarrier]

This may be easy for some..

[EcoWarrier]

Workers receive a wage for extracting resources and others receive a wage for transforming them into intermediate or final goods. The cost is included in the final goods and counted in GDP. This does not seem like denial to me.

Factors of Productiuon:

LAND - made by nature and all its resouces, inc, air, seabed, seas, ectromagnetic spectrum, etc.
CAPITAL - all man made things, inc money.
LABOR - men's efforts

The resouces of Land (ores, oil, etc) were NOT made by men, nature gave that. It is Commonwealth.

Workers (Labor) extract resources, using tools (Capital). Other workers (Labor) transform the resouces to Capital in goods using machines (Capital). The resouces (Commonwealth) were obtained free.

Geonomics puts a levy on the resources that were extracted to pay for community services. This reduces, or elimiates, Income Tax. This gives more money to people to buy the products.

[EcoWarrier]

I vote no.

So you vote for slavery. That is sad.