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Thread: What In The World Is Wrong With American Kids?

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by awake View Post
    Not just my assumption, Rothbard and notable socialists all admit as much...I believe Rothbard pointed out the socialists goal of state ownership of children in public schools in his Essay Education: Free or Compulsory.
    What was their basis? there is a difference between goal and actual result.

    Public schooling was the direct effort to undermine the role of family in eductation of the children. The public school system is simply a half measure currently...they never got the full plan in place.

    When your child comes home spouting about enviromental hollocaust and inspecting your garbage you know what public school was designed for.

    The total state needs total control.
    where was that data again?



  • #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickels View Post
    What was their basis? there is a difference between goal and actual result.



    where was that data again?
    "Wright and Owen advocated that the states simply organize a
    series of institutions for the “general reception” of all children liv-
    ing within that district. These establishments would be devoted to
    the complete rearing of the various age groups of children. The
    children would be forced to live at these places twenty-four hours
    a day. The parents would be allowed to visit their children from
    time to time. From the age of two every child would be under the
    care and guidance of the State.
    In these nurseries of a free nation, no inequality must be allowed to enter. Fed at a common board;
    clothed in a common garb...raised in the exercise of common duties... in the exercise of the same
    virtues, in the enjoyment of the same pleasures; in the study of the same nature; in pursuit of the
    same object...say! Would not such a race...work out the reform of society and perfect the free
    institutions of America?

    Owen was quite insistent that the system not “embrace any- thing less than the whole people.” The
    effect will be to “regenerate America in one generation. It will make but one class out of the
    many.” Frances Wright revealed the aim of the system starkly, call- ing on the people to overthrow
    a moneyed aristocracy and priestly hierarchy. “The present is a war of class.”
    Thus, we see that a new element has been introduced into the old use of compulsory education on
    behalf of State absolutism. A second goal is absolute equality and uniformity, and a compulsory
    school system was seen by Owen and Wright to be ideally suited to this task. First, the habits and
    minds and feelings of all the chil- dren must be molded into absolute equality; and then the nation
    will be ripe for the final step of equalization of property and incomes by means of State coercion.
    Why did Owen and Wright insist on seizing the children for twenty-four hours a day, from the age of
    two on, only releasing them when the school age was over at sixteen? As Owen declared:

    In republican schools, there must be no temptation to the growth of aristocratical prejudices.
    The pupils must learn to consider themselves as fellow citizens, as equals. Respect ought not to
    be paid to riches, or withheld from poverty. Yet, if the children from these state Schools are to
    go every evening, the one to his wealthy parent’s soft
    carpeted drawing room, and the other to its poor father’sor widowed mother’s comfortless cabin, will they return
    the next day as friends and equals?

    Likewise, differences in quality of clothing invoked feelings of envy on the part of the poor and
    disdain by the rich—which should be eliminated by forcing one uniform upon both. Through- out his
    plans there runs the hatred of human diversity, particularly of the higher living standards of the
    rich as compared to the poor. To effect his plan for thoroughgoing equalization by force, the
    schools must receive the children, not for six hours a day, but altogether must feed them, clothe
    them, lodge them; must direct not their studies only, but their occupations and amusements and
    must care for them until their edu- cation is completed.

    It might be asserted that the Owen–Wright plan is unimportant; that it had purely crackpot
    significance and little influence. The contrary is true. In the first place, the plan had a great
    deal of influ- ence: certainly the ideas of promoting equality were dominant in the thinking of the
    influential group of educationists that estab- lished and controlled the public schools of the
    nation during the
    1830s and 1840s. Furthermore, the Owen plan pushes the whole
    idea of compulsory state schooling to its logical conclusion—not
    only by promoting State absolutism and absolute equality—to
    which the system is admirably suited, but also because Owen rec-
    ognized that he had to educate the “whole child” in order to mold
    the coming generation sufficiently. Is it not probable that the “pro-
    gressive” drive to educate the “whole child” aims to mold the
    child’s entire personality in lieu of the complete Owen–Wright
    compulsory communist seizure, which no one in America would
    accept?
    The influence of the Owen–Wright plan is attested to by the fact that a contemporary laudatory
    historian of the public-school movement places it first in his story, and devotes considerable
    space to it.17 Cremin reports that a great many newspapers reprinted Owen’s essays on the plan,
    and approved them. Owen began expounding his project in the late 1820s and continued on until the
    late 1840s, when he wrote the elaborated plan with Miss Wright. It had a considerable influence on
    workers’ groups. " - M. Rothbard, Education:Free & Compulsory

  • #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by awake View Post
    "Wright and Owen advocated that the states simply organize a
    series of institutions for the “general reception” of all children liv-
    ing within that district. These establishments would be devoted to
    the complete rearing of the various age groups of children. The
    children would be forced to live at these places twenty-four hours
    a day. The parents would be allowed to visit their children from
    time to time. From the age of two every child would be under the
    care and guidance of the State.
    In these nurseries of a free nation, no inequality must be allowed to enter. Fed at a common board;
    clothed in a common garb...raised in the exercise of common duties... in the exercise of the same
    virtues, in the enjoyment of the same pleasures; in the study of the same nature; in pursuit of the
    same object...say! Would not such a race...work out the reform of society and perfect the free
    institutions of America?

    Owen was quite insistent that the system not “embrace any- thing less than the whole people.” The
    effect will be to “regenerate America in one generation. It will make but one class out of the
    many.” Frances Wright revealed the aim of the system starkly, call- ing on the people to overthrow
    a moneyed aristocracy and priestly hierarchy. “The present is a war of class.”
    Thus, we see that a new element has been introduced into the old use of compulsory education on
    behalf of State absolutism. A second goal is absolute equality and uniformity, and a compulsory
    school system was seen by Owen and Wright to be ideally suited to this task. First, the habits and
    minds and feelings of all the chil- dren must be molded into absolute equality; and then the nation
    will be ripe for the final step of equalization of property and incomes by means of State coercion.
    Why did Owen and Wright insist on seizing the children for twenty-four hours a day, from the age of
    two on, only releasing them when the school age was over at sixteen? As Owen declared:

    In republican schools, there must be no temptation to the growth of aristocratical prejudices.
    The pupils must learn to consider themselves as fellow citizens, as equals. Respect ought not to
    be paid to riches, or withheld from poverty. Yet, if the children from these state Schools are to
    go every evening, the one to his wealthy parent’s soft
    carpeted drawing room, and the other to its poor father’sor widowed mother’s comfortless cabin, will they return
    the next day as friends and equals?

    Likewise, differences in quality of clothing invoked feelings of envy on the part of the poor and
    disdain by the rich—which should be eliminated by forcing one uniform upon both. Through- out his
    plans there runs the hatred of human diversity, particularly of the higher living standards of the
    rich as compared to the poor. To effect his plan for thoroughgoing equalization by force, the
    schools must receive the children, not for six hours a day, but altogether must feed them, clothe
    them, lodge them; must direct not their studies only, but their occupations and amusements and
    must care for them until their edu- cation is completed.

    It might be asserted that the Owen–Wright plan is unimportant; that it had purely crackpot
    significance and little influence. The contrary is true. In the first place, the plan had a great
    deal of influ- ence: certainly the ideas of promoting equality were dominant in the thinking of the
    influential group of educationists that estab- lished and controlled the public schools of the
    nation during the
    1830s and 1840s. Furthermore, the Owen plan pushes the whole
    idea of compulsory state schooling to its logical conclusion—not
    only by promoting State absolutism and absolute equality—to
    which the system is admirably suited, but also because Owen rec-
    ognized that he had to educate the “whole child” in order to mold
    the coming generation sufficiently. Is it not probable that the “pro-
    gressive” drive to educate the “whole child” aims to mold the
    child’s entire personality in lieu of the complete Owen–Wright
    compulsory communist seizure, which no one in America would
    accept?
    The influence of the Owen–Wright plan is attested to by the fact that a contemporary laudatory
    historian of the public-school movement places it first in his story, and devotes considerable
    space to it.17 Cremin reports that a great many newspapers reprinted Owen’s essays on the plan,
    and approved them. Owen began expounding his project in the late 1820s and continued on until the
    late 1840s, when he wrote the elaborated plan with Miss Wright. It had a considerable influence on
    workers’ groups. " - M. Rothbard, Education:Free & Compulsory
    I didn't see anywhere in here that said

    compare country A to country B
    see how differently the government is involved in 2 countries?
    see? The one where there's more government, children are worse off.
    Change country to era, do you have an answer?

  • #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerailingDaTrain View Post
    I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been disobedient to my parents. Selfish, self-centered, cruel, incredibly brutal? That's not me at all but I guess it just depends on how well you were raised
    +rep for being a good son/daughter.

  • #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by awake View Post
    They are acting like and emulating the biggest and most diffuse influence in their lives: the state. The state schooled and taught them violence and welfare are the divine right of the most rigorous people to ever walk the Earth. Easy Bernanke money lets them enjoy the rewards of production while not having to be productive.

    Debasing the currency of a nation is tantamount to debasing its moral foundation...

    Sorry to say, the state that occupies America is a fascist warmongering imperialistic nation of righteous and arrogant busybodies. Bullies, blowhards and ignoramuses that preach "world democracy", which is nothing more than a soft form of communism.
    +1 from me on that post, and the posts following it.
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    "the cat is out of the bag and that cat can be armed with guns made with printed parts"

  • #26
    Member awake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickels View Post
    I didn't see anywhere in here that said

    compare country A to country B
    see how differently the government is involved in 2 countries?
    see? The one where there's more government, children are worse off.
    Change country to era, do you have an answer?

    If you want data and statistical comparison of country A vs. country B, that's an altogether different realm. Not one that I rely a whole lot on due to the nature of statistical data interpretation. Not to mention ease of statistical manipulation. The truth be told, many countries, comparably speaking, are modeled off of one another which is more or less the "public model". There is not a truly private system in place anywhere to make a difinative comparison ...One could make comparisons between home schooled children vs. state schooled children, but that would be a Child A vs. Child B scenario.

    I would recommend Rothbards essay. He builds a daming case.

  • #27
    Moderatorus Emeritus Cowlesy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I blame it on safety regulations. Before they came around, if you were stupid you got injured or even killed for doing something dumb. Now you really have to work at it. If you were killed or maimed, you couldn't breed and pass on the dumbness genes. Now they are allowed to multiply.
    Wtf, Juan!!! lolol Sadly, probably a bit of truth to that. Not to mention the huge welfare state.
    "Your mother's dead, before long I'll be dead, and you...and your brother and your sister and all of her children, all of us dead, all of us..rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family." - Tywin Lannister


  • #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by awake View Post
    If you want data and statistical comparison of country A vs. country B, that's an altogether different realm.
    That's like, the first and pretty much only thing I asked for.

    Not one that I rely a whole lot on due to the nature of statistical data interpretation.
    So your interpretation based on a person's opinion of reality makes more sense then people who actually know numbers, facts, data...etc?

    Not to mention ease of statistical manipulation. The truth be told, many countries, comparably speaking, are modeled off of one another which is more or less the "public model".
    But not all. So you still have yet to make a case. Yes, statistics can be manipulated, but give me the best you got, even if it goes against your argument, I want you to tell me why you believe the exact opposite of a statistical finding.

    Let's try this
    1. can you find me 2 countries which are completely equal, but vastly different on either education or government role on children
    2. If so, can you tell me how you measure the "well off, worse off" the children are, forget anybody else's findings, I'll let you draw that conclusion.

    So there, you only have to find ONE statistic, if you're going to tell me you can't find ONE good statistic on government involvement and public education among countries, then I really have no reason to take you seriously.

    There is not a truly private system in place anywhere to make a difinative comparison ...One could make comparisons between home schooled children vs. state schooled children, but that would be a Child A vs. Child B scenario.
    Which is all the more reason why you're convinced your ideals are perfect, because it's never been tested, therefore never proven wrong?

    I would recommend Rothbards essay. He builds a daming case.
    based on his opinions.

  • #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowlesy View Post
    Wtf, Juan!!! lolol Sadly, probably a bit of truth to that. Not to mention the huge welfare state.
    is he equating population reduction and intelligence selection with quality of life?

  • #30
    Moderatorus Emeritus Cowlesy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickels View Post
    is he equating population reduction and intelligence selection with quality of life?
    You're trying too hard.
    "Your mother's dead, before long I'll be dead, and you...and your brother and your sister and all of her children, all of us dead, all of us..rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. It's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor, but family." - Tywin Lannister


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