debt forgiveness question
At ~9 minutes in this vid, RP argues that heavily indebted nation-states like Spain (and the US) should simply write the debt off. I noticed that many folks on these boards were totally opposed to student loan forgiveness when that subject came up. I am curious as to what you think of RP's suggestion and if this changes your opinion on student loan forgiveness.
Thanks.
My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RPOriginally Posted by Ron Paul
That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
bump in hopes of more expert opinions.
My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RPThat which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
Far from expert but I do have an opinion.bump in hopes of more expert opinions.
When it comes to student loan debt I fully understand the scam perpetrated. However, I think those that have the ability, gained through their degree, should repay them. Those that can't should take the measures they need to declare themselves insolvent. I don't believe in an across the board forgiveness.
In America today there remains two factions.
The Federalist and the Anti-Federalist.
Neither of the two dominating political parties belong to the latter.
You can't be one and the other..
Fair point. However, all the indebted nations RP mentions made gains while going into debt just as college kids did. The currently bankrupt States, for example, blew money on all sorts of worthless "stimulus" type spending. Could you elaborate on why student loan debt is significantly different than "sovereign debt" (national debt)?
My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RPThat which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
Back in the day like in the caveman days if you loaned somebody money or tools or whatever and they physically couldn't pay you back then you and others in the community might decide to stop or curtail loaning them shit until they could prove themselves more capable or trustworthy. At some point, people decided that when you loan somebody something of your own, they may happen upon unfortunate circumstances or they may just act foolishly. Non-repayment didn't make them a bad person or criminally neglegent, necessarily, it didn't make the person who made the loans a bad person, necessarily, it was simply a personal decision that these groups and individuals decided on.
Nobody forces you to make a loan so people decided that non-repayment didn't mean that the person who made the loan could make any sort of demands they wanted on them because making the loan was 50% their decision and so failure of payment was 50% their fault.
Banks aren't community members so they participate in the credit score system so they can determine people's credit worthiness. But the system is pretty much morally and economically the same. If you CAN pay somebody back, you should, but if you can't that doesn't make you a bad person, necessarily. That is why we forgive people who can't pay back their loans. That is why people aren't FORCED to make loans. All loans come with risk and lenders must be aware of the inherent risk in lending their money. Loaning people money for profit isn't noble, it is a business. Even when it isn't for profit, it doesn't mean that the person can lay any claim they want, it was still voluntary.
It doesn't matter if it's the state borrowing from people, people borrowing from the state, whatever.. all of the morals and ethics from the original situation apply. Students should be able to declare bankruptcy and discharge their student debt. The people who vote for politicians who give loans to students should be aware of the risk they are making and probably shouldn't be electing people who make such risky loans. OR maybe people shouldn't have the ability to loan out money that belongs to others.
Last edited by dannno; 07-24-2012 at 06:21 PM.
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"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
It's apples and oranges. On the one side, you have a nation declaring bankruptcy. On the other, you have a nation stealing people's money to repay debt by force.
Two very different things. Declaring yourself bankrupt... that has a legitimate purpose. Declaring someone else bankrupt, and then banging on that person's neighbor's door with 10 men with AR-15's and demanding that they give their neighbor money so he can repay his debt.... does not have a legitimate purpose
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
That kind of depends on your worldview, though. You and I agree on that, but there are plenty of people who are either indifferent or like the State's power to act this way.
My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RPThat which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
Which is a shame, because as it happens, what's morally right, and what's economically effective, tend to go hand in hand 100%. And of course the opposite is true.
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
How would you feel about deductions from your paycheck to reimburse all the people who did pay tuition? With interest? With inflation?
As I think my last reply wasn't 100% fair, I will amend.
If the government got 10000% out of the education loan business - I'm talking one-hundred and ten percent here - then it wouldn't bother me so much. There is a cost to debt collection. I would insist on other reforms too like an end to state-mandated licensing of ALL professions. My demands would be a devastating blow to the education racket as it exists today.
Under some limited conditions, I would join hands with you and say, "fuck that debt!". As is, not yet - not a chance.
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