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Thread: Air Force Trains Drone Pilots by Tracking Civilian Cars in US

  1. #1

    Air Force Trains Drone Pilots by Tracking Civilian Cars in US

    The Drone Zone

    Mark Mazzetti
    The New York Times
    Fri, 06 Jul 2012 00:00 CDT

    Holloman Air Force Base, at the eastern edge of New Mexico's White Sands Missile Range, 200 miles south of Albuquerque, was once famous for the daredevil maneuvers of those who trained there. In 1954, Col. John Paul Stapp rode a rocket-propelled sled across the desert, reaching 632 miles per hour, in an attempt to figure out the maximum speed at which jet pilots could safely eject. He slammed on the brakes and was thrust forward with such force that he had to be hauled away on a stretcher, his eyes bleeding from burst capillaries. Six years later, Capt. Joseph Kittinger Jr., testing the height at which pilots could safely bail out, rode a helium-powered balloon up to 102,800 feet. He muttered, "Lord, take care of me now," dropped for 13 minutes 45 seconds and broke the record for the highest parachute jump.

    Today many of the pilots at Holloman never get off the ground. The base has been converted into the U.S. Air Force's primary training center for drone operators, where pilots spend their days in sand-colored trailers near a runway from which their planes take off without them. Inside each trailer, a pilot flies his plane from a padded chair, using a joystick and throttle, as his partner, the "sensor operator," focuses on the grainy images moving across a video screen, directing missiles to their targets with a laser.

    Holloman sits on almost 60,000 acres of desert badlands, near jagged hills that are frosted with snow for several months of the year - a perfect training ground for pilots who will fly Predators and Reapers over the similarly hostile terrain of Afghanistan. When I visited the base earlier this year with a small group of reporters, we were taken into a command post where a large flat-screen television was broadcasting a video feed from a drone flying overhead. It took a few seconds to figure out exactly what we were looking at. A white S.U.V. traveling along a highway adjacent to the base came into the cross hairs in the center of the screen and was tracked as it headed south along the desert road. When the S.U.V. drove out of the picture, the drone began following another car.

    "Wait, you guys practice tracking enemies by using civilian cars?" a reporter asked. One Air Force officer responded that this was only a training mission, and then the group was quickly hustled out of the room.

    Though the Pentagon is increasing its fleet of drones by 30 percent and military leaders estimate that, within a year or so, the number of Air Force pilots flying unmanned planes could be higher than the number who actually leave the ground, much about how and where the U.S. government operates drones remains a secret. Even the pilots we interviewed wore black tape over their nametags. The Air Force, citing concerns for the pilots' safety, forbids them to reveal their last names.

    It is widely known that the United States has three different drone programs. The first is the publicly acknowledged program run by the Pentagon that has been operating in Iraq and Afghanistan. The other two are classified programs run separately by the C.I.A. and the military's Joint Special Operations Command, which maintain separate lists of people targeted for killing.

    Over the years, details have trickled out about lethal drone operations in Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen and elsewhere. But the drone war has been even more extensive. According to three current and former intelligence officials I spoke to, in 2006, a barrage of Hellfire missiles from a Predator hit a suspected militant camp in the jungles of the Philippines, in an attempt to kill the Indonesian terrorist Umar Patek. The strike, which was reported at the time as a "Philippine military operation," missed Patek but killed others at the camp.

    The increased use of drones in warfare has led the Air Force to re-engineer its training program for drone pilots. Trainees are now sent to Holloman just months after they join the military, instead of first undergoing traditional pilot training as they did in the past. The Air Force can now produce certified Predator and Reaper pilots in less than two years.

    But the accelerated training has created its own problems. When I visited Holloman in February, there had been five drone accidents at the base since 2009. Most of them occurred during landing, when pilots have the most difficulty judging where the plane is in relation to the runway. As much as the military has tried to make drone pilots feel as if they are sitting in a cockpit, they are still flying a plane from a screen with a narrow field of vision.

    Then there is the fact that the movement shown on a drone pilot's video screen has over the years been seconds behind what the drone sees - a delay caused by the time it takes to bounce a signal off a satellite in space. This problem, called "latency," has long bedeviled drone pilots, making it difficult to hit a moving target. Last year senior operatives with Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula told a Yemeni reporter that if they hear an American drone overhead, they move around as much as possible. (Military officials said that they have made progress in recent years in addressing the latency problem but declined to provide details.)

    Stationing pilots in the United States has saved the Air Force money, and pilots at Holloman who have flown drone combat missions speak glowingly about a lifestyle that allows them to fight a war without going to war. Craig, an Air Force captain who is a trainer at the base, volunteered to fly Predators while in flight school. He calls his job "the perfect balance of mission and family."

    And yet this balance comes at a cost. Pilots have flown missions over Afghanistan in the morning, stopped for lunch, fought the Iraq war in the afternoon and then driven home in time for dinner. Lt. Col Matt Martin, formerly a trainer at Holloman, wrote about the disorienting experience of toggling among different war zones in a memoir, "Predator," calling the experience "enough to make a Predator pilot schizophrenic."

    It's disorienting in other ways too. Can a pilot who flies planes remotely ever be as heroic as the aces who flew behind enemy lines or as Colonel Stapp, whose stunt in the New Mexico desert won him a prestigious medal for valor and put him on the cover of Time magazine?

    Luther (Trey) Turner III, a retired colonel who flew combat missions during the gulf war before he switched to flying Predators in 2003, said that he doesn't view his combat experience flying drones as "valorous." "My understanding of the term is that you are faced with danger. And, when I am sitting in a ground-control station thousands of miles away from the battlefield, that's just not the case." But, he said, "I firmly believe it takes bravery to fly a U.A.V." - unmanned aerial vehicle - "particularly when you're called upon to take someone's life. In some cases, you are watching it play out live and in color." As more than one pilot at Holloman told me, a bit defensively, "We're not just playing video games here."

    Mark Mazzetti is a national-security correspondent for The Times. He is currently writing a book about the C.I.A. since 9/11.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  3. #2
    "Wait, you guys practice tracking enemies by using civilian cars?" a reporter asked. One Air Force officer responded that this was only a training mission, and then the group was quickly hustled out of the room.
    Luther (Trey) Turner III, a retired colonel who flew combat missions during the gulf war before he switched to flying Predators in 2003, said that he doesn't view his combat experience flying drones as "valorous." "My understanding of the term is that you are faced with danger. And, when I am sitting in a ground-control station thousands of miles away from the battlefield, that's just not the case." But, he said, "I firmly believe it takes bravery to fly a U.A.V." - unmanned aerial vehicle - "particularly when you're called upon to take someone's life. In some cases, you are watching it play out live and in color." As more than one pilot at Holloman told me, a bit defensively, "We're not just playing video games here."
    And so, it just be that much easier to "pull the trigger" in the US, when the time comes.

    Yay, freedom!

    Yay, technology!

    Yay, 'Murica!

  4. #3
    The distance of video doesn't lessen the impact when you see people on the other end have their lives ended.
    http://www.iycki.org

    Pro-life conservative Constitutionalist libertarian.


    I stand with Rand.

  5. #4
    Even the pilots we interviewed wore black tape over their name tags.
    Like that's a long term strategy.




    Where are the boys sitting when the "secure" drone pilot address list pops up on anonnews.org ?

    Civilian deaths: Women, children, funerals, rescuers.... don't forget: "all military-age males in a strike zone [ARE] combatants"
    http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-se...uestions-about

    If it ain't worth boots on the ground... it ain't worth fighting for.

    presence
    Last edited by presence; 07-08-2012 at 07:16 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    The distance of video doesn't lessen the impact when you see people on the other end have their lives ended.
    Yes it does.

    *edit*

    to most Americans
    Last edited by Ranger29860; 07-08-2012 at 07:38 AM.

  7. #6
    evil fuGGers are EVIL

    got my clown suit, what can i kill?

  8. #7
    ...''a family of 4 from Portland Oregon on vacation in New Mexico were killed today in an apparent accidental firing of a drone missile during a training mission. Authorities are investigating the incident and have apologized to the extended family for the accident''

    ....coming to a theatre near you.
    Last edited by JK/SEA; 07-08-2012 at 07:09 PM.

  9. #8
    Drones on training missions in the US are not armed.
    http://www.iycki.org

    Pro-life conservative Constitutionalist libertarian.


    I stand with Rand.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    Drones on training missions in the US are not armed.
    uh huh...ok...thats why they'll call it an 'accident'.....all part of the 'training'...oops!...sorry

  12. #10
    Also, good luck hearing a Predator overhead at operational altitudes.
    http://www.iycki.org

    Pro-life conservative Constitutionalist libertarian.


    I stand with Rand.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    The distance of video doesn't lessen the impact when you see people on the other end have their lives ended.
    I agree with your other posts in this thread, but not this one.

    Watching something happen on a television screen and being there in person are night and day. Having to kill someone in person, and in turn being in real danger of being killed at the time, is absolutely different from being half a world away in a climate-controlled "office" environment from which you will go home to your wife and kids, 100% for certain, in very short order. This has been known to some extent or another for thousands of years, and is an oft-repeated gripe. The military commanders have become more and more distant from the battlefield. They look at numbers, they make decisions, then they go out for drinks. In the old days they would hang back and would send wave after wave of soldiers to their deaths as they picnicked atop a hill to await news of their victory, or an early signal to make a discreet exit.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    Drones on training missions in the US are not armed.
    Does it matter... to you?
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    I agree with your other posts in this thread, but not this one.

    Watching something happen on a television screen and being there in person are night and day. Having to kill someone in person, and in turn being in real danger of being killed at the time, is absolutely different from being half a world away in a climate-controlled "office" environment from which you will go home to your wife and kids, 100% for certain, in very short order. This has been known to some extent or another for thousands of years, and is an oft-repeated gripe. The military commanders have become more and more distant from the battlefield. They look at numbers, they make decisions, then they go out for drinks. In the old days they would hang back and would send wave after wave of soldiers to their deaths as they picnicked atop a hill to await news of their victory, or an early signal to make a discreet exit.
    I'm talking about when it is the enemy, not commanders sending their troops off to battle. Sitting in the climate controlled office environment, making decisions that will cause the death of another human (your enemy, even) and then going home to the wife and kids, is extremely stressful and difficult. I'm not saying it is the same as being right there when the death occurs, but there is no room for decompression. And you see it much closer and for longer than if you were dropping bombs on a target from a manned aircraft. But it is the compartmentalization that makes it so hard.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...tress-20120318

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/wo...of-stress.html
    Last edited by realtonygoodwin; 07-08-2012 at 05:41 PM.
    http://www.iycki.org

    Pro-life conservative Constitutionalist libertarian.


    I stand with Rand.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Does it matter... to you?
    Definitely.
    http://www.iycki.org

    Pro-life conservative Constitutionalist libertarian.


    I stand with Rand.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    Drones on training missions in the US are not armed.
    Yeah, they'd never do that.



    http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/...mestic-drones/

    Even after the first 53 yr old cancer surviving great-grandma gets blown up tending her vegetable garden in Buffalo, NY...
    or the first group of 13 yr old middle school boys hanging out in the driveway somewhere in Nebraska gets hit with a Hellfire-

    I fear there will still be a majority that supports this due to the slowly boiling water they've been swimming in for so long. Not a peep of the hundreds injured and killed in para military police raids every year.

    Maybe it really will take them sitting in their living rooms watching American Idol and then having their neighbors vaporized before their eyes by a hellfire missile-they were growing pot and supporting terrorists, you know-.

    If there are people now willing to kill in Afghanistan or whereeverthefuckelseweare-istan with armed drones, it aint nothing but another American drone pilot singing "Bye Bye, Miss American Pie" the second before the missile rips you to pieces in front of your family, if not outright killing them, too. It's ok-they commonly wait for a crowd to gather and try to help the wounded, then drop another missile or rain them with .30 cal machine gun fire. Imagine this scene on the streets of your town...it's not far away if they are not stopped soon.
    EX-USCG


    What is the difference between a hero and a cop? A hero will not hesitate to risk his life to protect your safety, a cop will not hesitate to risk your life to protect his safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Authoritarian leftists. Political prisoners. Gulags. Where are we again?

  18. #16
    You realize the RPAs don't have guns on them, right?

    Also, that video shows a manned aircraft. So not relevant.

    Regardless, let me know when you hear of an armed drone flying operational missions on US soil.
    http://www.iycki.org

    Pro-life conservative Constitutionalist libertarian.


    I stand with Rand.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    Definitely.
    Why is that? My objection doesn't change if they are armed or unarmed. It is still a violation of the Fourth and Sixth Amendments. That they are armed or unarmed is harldy the issue (though a major issue nonetheless).. perhaps they shouldn't be spying on American citizens without a proper warrant to begin with. And even then...
    Last edited by kcchiefs6465; 07-08-2012 at 09:37 PM.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  21. #18
    If they were manned aircraft, they still wouldn't need a warrant.
    http://www.iycki.org

    Pro-life conservative Constitutionalist libertarian.


    I stand with Rand.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    If they were manned aircraft, they still wouldn't need a warrant.
    Wow. And why wouldn't a surveillance vehicle need a warrant to SURVEIL a private vehicle and their activities?
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  23. #20
    On public roads?

    Cop cars don't need warrants to patrol streets.
    http://www.iycki.org

    Pro-life conservative Constitutionalist libertarian.


    I stand with Rand.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    If they were manned aircraft, they still wouldn't need a warrant.
    I apologize for missing your location. I am sure some other members will vouch for my "jumping to assumptionsess." That being said, since you are obviously a liberty minded soldier (by which I mean no disrespect, rather, respect) I would like to know how these drone 'missions' fall in line with the Constution/just-war theory.
    Last edited by kcchiefs6465; 07-08-2012 at 10:09 PM.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    On public roads?

    Cop cars don't need warrants to patrol streets.
    Ahh. Best of luck azxd. Do you wish to partake in an actual discussion? What leads you to equate cop cars to drones (surveillance vehicles flying overhead)?

    ETA: Please give a chance. I don't take time to 'preach to the choir,' rather, try to change someone's views and/or thoughts about the world/$#@!ed up system many were born unto.
    Last edited by kcchiefs6465; 07-08-2012 at 10:05 PM.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    On public roads?


    Cop cars don't need warrants to patrol streets.
    Your right! but cops are not subject to Posse Comitatus! Not to mention cops still need probable cause to do anything other than sit there on the road like everyone else.
    This is not even about the fact that they are paroling like a police force this has much more to do with the entire environment of big brother and the apparent right of the president to kill, imprison, torture, and strip citizens of there citizenship whenever he feels like it. You are trying to take a VERY complex issue with many moving parts and turn it into political soundbites that the masses will simply hear and say OK that's not as bad as people make it sound.

    You are making these statements COMPLETELY out of context of where they should be then playing possum whenever anyone calls you on it. Judging by your location on your profile I can guess you might be in the military and as a vet myself I am astonished if this is the case that you do not understand the implications of something like this moving forward without any resistance from the public.


    Armed or not it does not matter. Controlled by the police or the military does not matter. Locations do not matter. This is not the only "defensive" weapon that has been moved from military service to local police. L.R.A.D. is a great example of why you do not do this. Also body scanners are the same. There is a reason military equipment is military equipment and not standard issue police equipment. One is for a war-zone and is designed in that way. When you hand these devices over to domestic police forces you will ALWAYS get abuse. Because guess why? Police are MUCH MORE child like and prone to puffing there chest up and abusing power. Yes it happens in the military but not nearly to the same extent and as widespread as you see domestically. So handing these devices that soldiers not only are trained correctly on to use but also have the discipline instilled in them to control themselves when using these weapon to a not disciplined police force who have a massive record of being unfit to hold a tazer let alone anything of real significance can only lead to disaster.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    I apologize for missing your location. I am sure some other members will vouch for my "jumping to assumptionsess." That being said, since you are obviously a liberty minded soldier (by which I mean no disrespect, rather, respect) I would like to know how these drone 'missions' fall in line with the Constution/just-war theory.
    No worries, my location shouldn't affect how we think about this subject.

    Is your concerns over RPA warfare in general, or over them flying training missions in the US?

    I appreciate your willingness to engage on this topic and not reduce it to bombasticism.
    http://www.iycki.org

    Pro-life conservative Constitutionalist libertarian.


    I stand with Rand.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger29860 View Post
    Your right! but cops are not subject to Posse Comitatus! Not to mention cops still need probable cause to do anything other than sit there on the road like everyone else.
    This is not even about the fact that they are paroling like a police force this has much more to do with the entire environment of big brother and the apparent right of the president to kill, imprison, torture, and strip citizens of there citizenship whenever he feels like it. You are trying to take a VERY complex issue with many moving parts and turn it into political soundbites that the masses will simply hear and say OK that's not as bad as people make it sound.

    You are making these statements COMPLETELY out of context of where they should be then playing possum whenever anyone calls you on it. Judging by your location on your profile I can guess you might be in the military and as a vet myself I am astonished if this is the case that you do not understand the implications of something like this moving forward without any resistance from the public.


    Armed or not it does not matter. Controlled by the police or the military does not matter. Locations do not matter. This is not the only "defensive" weapon that has been moved from military service to local police. L.R.A.D. is a great example of why you do not do this. Also body scanners are the same. There is a reason military equipment is military equipment and not standard issue police equipment. One is for a war-zone and is designed in that way. When you hand these devices over to domestic police forces you will ALWAYS get abuse. Because guess why? Police are MUCH MORE child like and prone to puffing there chest up and abusing power. Yes it happens in the military but not nearly to the same extent and as widespread as you see domestically. So handing these devices that soldiers not only are trained correctly on to use but also have the discipline instilled in them to control themselves when using these weapon to a not disciplined police force who have a massive record of being unfit to hold a tazer let alone anything of real significance can only lead to disaster.
    I agree with you on the bolded area. The fact is that these military training missions flown in the US are not used to enforce domestic laws. They are for training pilots and sensor operators.

    My point about the warrant is that it is not unlawful to merely observe or even follow someone, whether you are a cop on the street, a pilot in an airplane, or a pilot on the ground observing through video.

    I do not understand the opposition to new technology that is a tool. Like any tool, it can be misused. That doesn't mean the tool itself is to blame.
    http://www.iycki.org

    Pro-life conservative Constitutionalist libertarian.


    I stand with Rand.



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