Stupid things the "Occupy" movement says - "Commodities trading is crime."

[eric_cartman]

here's what someone from the Occupy Canada facebook group posted:

Commodities trading is crime. Market speculation in food commodities adds to the price without adding to the production. It is gambling and market manipulation solely in the interests of private profit. Food speculation is the leading cause of famine in the world today, that is how it is that food surplus countries in Africa can have thousands daily dying of starvation - the food is there, but they can't afford it. -b

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/07/03-6

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there were a number of people who disagreed... but most people were supportive of the post.

someone posted a link to a Walter Block article: http://mises.org/daily/4466

the article has the quote: "prohibiting food speculation has the same effect on society as preventing squirrels from storing up nuts for winter — it leads to starvation."

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the reply:

Occupy Canada: Adam Smith's "invisible hand" is an article of faith, the religion of greed. Food specualtion in no way emulates the sotring of nuts by squirrels - surplus food can be stored without the profit of self-interested speculators, indeed, storage of excess food is what happens anyway since it can't be eaten, being excess. Those of us who do not believe in imaginary "market forces" won't be swayed by preposterous Austrian economics. No sense posting their propaganda here. -b

[The Goat]

There's a forest on the other side of those trees.

[Danan]

here's what someone from the Occupy Canada facebook group posted:

Commodities trading is crime. Market speculation in food commodities adds to the price without adding to the production. It is gambling and market manipulation solely in the interests of private profit. Food speculation is the leading cause of famine in the world today, that is how it is that food surplus countries in Africa can have thousands daily dying of starvation - the food is there, but they can't afford it. -b

I always love this idiotic reasoning. According to them the big problem of present-day society is the boundless greed inherent in capitalism and all it's actors. The only people who (for some unknown reason) refuse to participate in this behaviour are farmers. They aren't interested in profit maximizing and sell their food for prices way below equilibrium level which enables evil food speculators to profit from arbitrage by buying up all the food and selling it for higher prices. And not the normal kind of arbitrage where you have low prices in place A and high prices in place B and ship goods around because that would "add value" (which apperantly they don't) and it wouldn't cause prices to go up globally. But some kind of magic arbitrage were they buy up everything and sell it for 50% more as a longterm strategy. However that works.


That is a completely asinine position and it baffles me that even "well educated" economists participate in this witch-hunt. You don't have to study Austrian Economics or other free market schools of thought to get that. Even in context of the neo-classical standard model it's a given that putting prices above equilibrium level is a terrible business model that is by no means sustainable.

If speculators do buy commodities in huge amounts it's either because prices are lower than usual due to a good harvest (in order to sell when prices go up, which reduces volatillity and is responsable for affordable food even when times are really bad) or because price levels are very different in various areas (which again causes prices to drop were they are exceptionally high at the moment).

"Speculation" is a vital function of a free market. It provides market information by adjusting prices and reduces price volatility.


By outlawing food speculation more people in poor countries would die in years of a bad harvest and more food would be thrown away in good years - but at least those greedy speculators won't profit!

I guess that's what these folks arguing for a ban want anyway. Quite often they are the same people who cry me river about "overpopulation"-BS. As if that or food speculation caused starvation in Africa and not their low productivity.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Right....so if you outlawed commodities trading how are people supposed to get any food? I know they mean 'speculation', but if you outlawed trading of commodities then how are non-farmers supposed to eat? These people are lunatics. Never mind the fact that destruction of specialization would lead to mass starvation due to piss poor harvests, or even none at all. Joe Schmoe out there trying to farm who has had at most a few weeks of experience....You'd think they would have learned from Collectivization which starved tens of millions of Soviets.

[cubical]

If you don't believe in market forces, then you believe voo doo moves prices? Speculation requires buyers and sellers. Who are you going to outlaw? There are starving people in Africa because in some parts they produce next to nothing(which I am sure is related to both lack of natural resources and government oppression). Should we force farmers to send their production to these parts of Africa for nothing in return?

Trying to reason with these people is too difficult. They are a lost cause.

[LibForestPaul]

Right....so if you outlawed commodities trading how are people supposed to get any food? I know they mean 'speculation', but if you outlawed trading of commodities then how are non-farmers supposed to eat? These people are lunatics. Never mind the fact that destruction of specialization would lead to mass starvation due to piss poor harvests, or even none at all. Joe Schmoe out there trying to farm who has had at most a few weeks of experience....You'd think they would have learned from Collectivization which starved tens of millions of Soviets.

That response was not a response of a lunatic. That was a cold response meant for disinformation. scary...

[matt0611]

These people are $#@!ing scary. Wow.

I read an article once on how onions were banned from price speculation and because of this it has much bigger price spikes.

[angelatc]

Where do they draw the line at speculation? When we had our seafood store, we constantly looked at the weather conditions and such in parts of the world that were producing the products that we sold. When we saw potential shortages, we raised prices anticipating that our next purchase was going to cost us more than the previous purchase.

That's the most basic form of speculation right there.

[Seraphim]

Africa (most) is one of the most well endowed areas in the world for natural resources.

The people are starving there because of 1) Brutal homegrown tyranny 2) Foreign intervention in their power structure

China and the USA (and their subsequent partners) are battling over Africa and up into the core of the Middle East. This is the primary territory war right now in the world.

Africa is absolutely LOADED with resources.

If you don't believe in market forces, then you believe voo doo moves prices? Speculation requires buyers and sellers. Who are you going to outlaw? There are starving people in Africa because in some parts they produce next to nothing(which I am sure is related to both lack of natural resources and government oppression). Should we force farmers to send their production to these parts of Africa for nothing in return?

Trying to reason with these people is too difficult. They are a lost cause.

[Seraphim]

Communists with zero pratical understanding of human action within the market place. Big surprise. Lol.

Where do they draw the line at speculation? When we had our seafood store, we constantly looked at the weather conditions and such in parts of the world that were producing the products that we sold. When we saw potential shortages, we raised prices anticipating that our next purchase was going to cost us more than the previous purchase.

That's the most basic form of speculation right there.

[RonRules]

These people are $#@!ing scary. Wow.

I read an article once on how onions were banned from price speculation and because of this it has much bigger price spikes.

Did you read that in "The Onion?"

[ClydeCoulter]

So, let's "group" these people into a stereotype and drive them away from discussion. If I were an "occupier" I would see a lot of love in the title of this thread for a "group". /sarcasm

[mczerone]

Communists with zero pratical understanding of human action within the market place. Big surprise. Lol.

Yeah, and they characterize the rational, analytic science of human action (i.e. praxeology/Austrian econ) as "preposterous propaganda."

But somehow they can magically come up with rules that can be applied with zero costs, corruption, or cheating which fundamentally ignore, neigh refute, human nature that, despite all historical evidence, they claim will lead to some "prosperity".

But them striving for prosperity is different than us doing it, because we're "greedy". Their's is somehow a desire for prosperity that doesn't involve wanting more returns for less investment.

[eric_cartman]

Occupy Canada wrote: "If speculation works to get food into the hands of those who need it, what was it that worked before the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000? Did everyone in 1999 and before have no access to food? -b"

[cubical]

Africa (most) is one of the most well endowed areas in the world for natural resources.

The people are starving there because of 1) Brutal homegrown tyranny 2) Foreign intervention in their power structure

China and the USA (and their subsequent partners) are battling over Africa and up into the core of the Middle East. This is the primary territory war right now in the world.

Africa is absolutely LOADED with resources.

Well that is why I said parts. Some parts are wastelands.

[angelatc]

Occupy Canada wrote: "If speculation works to get food into the hands of those who need it, what was it that worked before the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000? Did everyone in 1999 and before have no access to food? -b"

What does that even mean?

[NewRightLibertarian]

That response was not a response of a lunatic. That was a cold response meant for disinformation. scary...

Yep, it was written by an associate professor.

[Carson]

Living on a farm it can be frustrating to hear how much everyone else makes off of something like a loaf of bread. You've grow everything in there, just about, but your market share is a small fraction.

It is like that with many things. It seems marketing is where it's at.

Get yourself a plaid suit son.