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Thread: MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT: Lawyers for Ron Paul Lawsuit NOTE: Having the lawsuit not up 4 debate

  1. #571

    Default

    I don't know.
    Last edited by lawdida; 09-10-2012 at 02:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    Righteous mutiny - RPF is taking over the lawsuit.
    Boom:

    Are we just playing around?

    The Grand Shi Strategy



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  3. #572

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lawdida View Post
    Why do you want to close your eyes to his problems?
    Because I saw him work with my own eyes.

    Where were you?
    Statistics don't lie, people do.

  4. #573

    Default

    I don't know.
    Last edited by lawdida; 09-10-2012 at 02:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    Righteous mutiny - RPF is taking over the lawsuit.
    Boom:

    Are we just playing around?

    The Grand Shi Strategy

  5. #574

    Default

    I don't know.
    Last edited by lawdida; 09-10-2012 at 02:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    Righteous mutiny - RPF is taking over the lawsuit.
    Boom:

    Are we just playing around?

    The Grand Shi Strategy

  6. #575

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lerua1 View Post
    Ladies and Gentlemen, there are millions of freedom-liberty minded people in Europe and elsewhere, but we cann”t intervine in your battle, not yet, maybe later, only God knows, y hope we”ll have the opportunity, till then you have to fight on your own. You”ll lose or winn this war on one battlefield; REP.Party. The only thing that matters is THE NUMBERS THAT YOU HAVE AND CAN BRING INTO. DON”T GIVE UP; THE PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE YOU ARE WATCHING FROM OUTSIDE; YOU ARE NOT ALONE; STAY BEHIND RON PAUL AND NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE THE NOMENEE IN TAMPA.

    Sincerly yours
    aurel barber
    welcome to the forums!
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  7. #576

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    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    the RNC has apparently just said if the Maine delegates don't sign to a laundry list of requirements they will not get to go.

    If this is written on an official letterhead it's possible it could be used.

  8. #577

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawdida View Post
    He is the only one willing to do it for free. With all the attorneys out there, and this being a high profile issue, it is a bad sign for the success of the case that Gilbert’s the only volunteer.

    Since everyone here knows other attorneys could have worked on the case if someone would was willing to pay them, we know that Gilbert wasn’t the only choice. Yet, he’s granted a lot of latitude considering his shoddy work product and unprofessional deportment.

    Why isn’t this latitude given to Jesse, Rand, and others? Why just Gilbert? It is because he’s crazy and you feel bad? Or is it because he acts out your legal rage fantasies and promises to storm the convention with armed federal marshals?

    In all honesty, I try to criticize him at every point when he’s taken seriously. However, as a performance artist, I think he’s really funny.
    You are miscontruing how this lawsuit happened. It's not like people went out looking for a lawyer and nobody wanted to take the case.

    The Ron Paul campaign should have initiated legal action long ago because of all the cheating in primaries, and didn't.

    This lawyer stepped forward and said "Damn it, if nobody is going to do anything, I'm going to do something."

    He took initiative, and he is working for free, because he believes in this cause, and he believes in Liberty.

    He may tend to be very dramatic, and say dramatic things, and he may not be the most prim and proper in his comportment, but who the hell are you to criticize him? I watched him in court with my own eyes and I can tell you his performance was neither shoddy, nor unprofessional. This guy kicked the polished GOP attorney's butt in court as far as I'm concerned. I will be surprised if the judge grants the motion to dismiss.

    Now, does the complaint need more specificity? Yes. Why didn't it to begin with? I don't know. Maybe because this guy had hundreds of affidavits to sort through in a matter of a few weeks, and had very little time, and therefore it just wasn't humanly possible to boil everything down into specifics for over 50 states and US territories with multiple stories (affidavits) from each one? Gee.

    If you happen to know Superman, and he has a law degree, and you can get him to take this case pro bono, then go get him. Otherwise, don't criticize when you have zero knowledge of what kind of lawyer Gilbert is. I saw him in court and he argued a good case. He dismantled the GOP lawyer's arguments very skillfully. You can say whatever you want, but just be aware you are making stuff up and making assumptions, not speaking from direct experience.

    By the way, how much is Romney's campaign paying you to spread this negativity?
    "Some supporters of the war use their religion to justify the war. Evidently, I’ve been reading from a different Bible." — Ron Paul
    “I'm supportive of all voluntary associations and people can call it whatever they want.” ― Ron Paul

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  9. #578

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    If this is written on an official letterhead it's possible it could be used.
    I posted what we have including their letter in that new thread, I am hoping Chris Dixon who is a delegate who posted it here will give more details to clean it up.

    his weekend, the RNC, via Maine Republican Party Chairman Charlie Webster offered a "compromise"... take a look:

    1. A majority of the delegates sign a statement agreeing that, if Ron Paul is not on the ballot, they will vote at the Convention for Mitt Romney.

    2. Instead of Brent Tweed, Charlie Webster or Paul LePage would serve as the spokesperson for the delegation and announce the votes cast for president. That spokesperson would also handle all media on behalf of the Maine delegation.

    3. There will be nothing negative said about Mitt Romney or positive said about Obama (especially to media).

    4. The Delegation will be admitted to the Convention, and to all committee assignments, without barrier.

    5. The Contest brought by Jan Staples and Peter Cianchette will be withdrawn.

    Note that their agreement to vote for Romney if Ron isnt on the ballot gives INCENTIVE to the credentials committee to bar Ron's delegates elsewhere.
    Last edited by sailingaway; 08-07-2012 at 03:38 PM.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  10. #579

    Default

    I don't know.
    Last edited by lawdida; 09-10-2012 at 02:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    Righteous mutiny - RPF is taking over the lawsuit.
    Boom:

    Are we just playing around?

    The Grand Shi Strategy

  11. #580
    Lone Coyote ClydeCoulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    If this is written on an official letterhead it's possible it could be used.
    Against the maine establishment/RNC, right?
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  12. #581

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    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    I posted what we have including their letter in that new thread, I am hoping Chris Dixon who is a delegate who posted it here will give more details to clean it up.




    Note that their agreement to vote for Romney if Ron isnt on the ballot gives INCENTIVE to the credentials committee to bar Ron's delegates elsewhere.

    After quick perusal of the google doc. this appears to be a succinct state court complaint.

  13. #582

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    After quick perusal of the google doc. this appears to be a succinct state court complaint.
    yeah, I was reading it at the same time. I posted it from the description. the 'offer of compromise' is apparently separate, by the state GOP chair:

    his weekend, the RNC, via Maine Republican Party Chairman Charlie Webster offered a "compromise"... take a look:

    1. A majority of the delegates sign a statement agreeing that, if Ron Paul is not on the ballot, they will vote at the Convention for Mitt Romney.

    2. Instead of Brent Tweed, Charlie Webster or Paul LePage would serve as the spokesperson for the delegation and announce the votes cast for president. That spokesperson would also handle all media on behalf of the Maine delegation.

    3. There will be nothing negative said about Mitt Romney or positive said about Obama (especially to media).

    4. The Delegation will be admitted to the Convention, and to all committee assignments, without barrier.

    5. The Contest brought by Jan Staples and Peter Cianchette will be withdrawn.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  14. #583

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeCoulter View Post
    Against the maine establishment/RNC, right?
    Even if the documents have not been filed in state court they appear complete enough to proffer as evidence in the federal hearing.

    (I ain't a lawyer!)

  15. #584

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    Quote Originally Posted by RonRules View Post
    Richard Gilbert wrote me back, when I offered hivemind help for providing various forms of evidence in all 50 states:
    Richard:
    Thank you for your e mail RR. We will know better what we need going forward once we receive the Judge's Ruling.
    Regards,
    Richard
    So standby for the ruling and be ready to collect all the data he needs.
    Quote Originally Posted by eleganz View Post
    Let's just create a new sticky thread where we can compile information where one poster handles the main post for final factual accurate evidence. When we're finished, we can link to Gilbert...another grassroots victory?
    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    good idea. I'll make my post on LA into a thread for other threads and circumstances to be added, and add the name of forum members we think can substantiate it, so we can double check our details. I'll just put the post up now as is and refine it later. Torchbearer did say it was accurate and he was willing to testify (so presumably would have no problem signing an affidavit).
    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    please monitor the new thread as you can: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...r-LFRP-lawsuit
    also the RNC has apparently just said if the Maine delegates don't sign to a laundry list of requirements they will not get to go.
    This is good idea.... but ( dont kill me): For court data should be presented in certain (universal if possible) manner:
    Who,where, when to whom etc.

    A lot of names and dates and accusations. I advise CAUTION and due diligence. Before people start to collect information maybe there should be some things clarified: who has access? Data is public? What info will be required? How will data be collected? et cetera... Make clear rules and hierarchy (like it or not it is effective).
    I am all for it but this needs to be done proffesionally and not "ad hoc" bar debate style.

    Good preparation makes half of success (this doesnt sounds right on english).
    So you gave up on this:
    H
    elp with documenting voting rights violations and election fraud abuses!?
    Shame. Nothing encourages crime than not punishing it. You are letting them get away with it.FAIL.


    Quote Originally Posted by orenbus View Post
    If I had to answer this question truthfully I'd probably piss a lot of people off lol, Barrex would be a better person to ask he doesn't seem to care lol.


  16. #585

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    Quote Originally Posted by lerua1 View Post
    Ladies and Gentlemen, there are millions of freedom-liberty minded people in Europe and elsewhere, but we cann”t intervine in your battle, not yet, maybe later, only God knows, y hope we”ll have the opportunity, till then you have to fight on your own. You”ll lose or winn this war on one battlefield; REP.Party. The only thing that matters is THE NUMBERS THAT YOU HAVE AND CAN BRING INTO. DON”T GIVE UP; THE PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE YOU ARE WATCHING FROM OUTSIDE; YOU ARE NOT ALONE; STAY BEHIND RON PAUL AND NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE THE NOMENEE IN TAMPA.

    Sincerly yours
    aurel barber
    Welcome to the forums. Thank you for your kind words.
    "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
    —Charles Mackay

    "god i fucking wanna rip his balls off and offer them to the gods"
    -Anonymous

  17. #586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barrex View Post

    [/B]Good preparation makes half of success (this doesnt sounds right on english).
    Sure it does!

    Somebody please cover me on rep, I'm out..

  18. #587
    Lone Coyote ClydeCoulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Sure it does!

    Somebody please cover me on rep, I'm out..
    done
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  19. #588
    Lone Coyote ClydeCoulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lerua1 View Post
    Ladies and Gentlemen, there are millions of freedom-liberty minded people in Europe and elsewhere, but we cann”t intervine in your battle, not yet, maybe later, only God knows, y hope we”ll have the opportunity, till then you have to fight on your own. You”ll lose or winn this war on one battlefield; REP.Party. The only thing that matters is THE NUMBERS THAT YOU HAVE AND CAN BRING INTO. DON”T GIVE UP; THE PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE YOU ARE WATCHING FROM OUTSIDE; YOU ARE NOT ALONE; STAY BEHIND RON PAUL AND NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE THE NOMENEE IN TAMPA.

    Sincerly yours
    aurel barber
    The emotional support means a lot, a whole lot, thank you
    Last edited by ClydeCoulter; 08-07-2012 at 03:50 PM.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  20. #589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barrex View Post
    This is good idea.... but ( dont kill me): For court data should be presented in certain (universal if possible) manner:
    Who,where, when to whom etc.

    A lot of names and dates and accusations. I advise CAUTION and due diligence. Before people start to collect information maybe there should be some things clarified: who has access? Data is public? What info will be required? How will data be collected? et cetera... Make clear rules and hierarchy (like it or not it is effective).
    I am all for it but this needs to be done proffesionally and not "ad hoc" bar debate style.

    Good preparation makes half of success (this doesnt sounds right on english).
    first we need to make sure we have the correct facts then one person can write them up in a uniform style, then others can fact check.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  21. #590

    Default

    I don't know.
    Last edited by lawdida; 09-10-2012 at 02:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    Righteous mutiny - RPF is taking over the lawsuit.
    Boom:

    Are we just playing around?

    The Grand Shi Strategy

  22. #591
    Member eleganz's Avatar
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    pull up AZ delegate letter
    Last edited by eleganz; 08-07-2012 at 03:55 PM.
    Los Angeles County Republican Party (the largest GOP central committee in the nation)
    -57% of the executive board is liberty
    -43% of the executive committee is liberty
    -40% of the central committee is liberty

    Getting involved at the local level is the most important thing you can do to WIN

    be ACTIVE, be EFFECTIVE, be ORGANIZED, be STRATEGIC, be VICTORIOUS.

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  23. #592

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    "Instead of Brent Tweed, Charlie Webster or Paul LePage would serve as the spokesperson for the delegation and announce the votes cast for president."

    It's like Brent Tweed can't read results?!!

    Charlie Webster has experience reading results I guess.
    Statistics don't lie, people do.

  24. #593

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleganz View Post
    There is a letter written from one of the AZ delegates as well, I can pull that up into the thread when its created.
    the thread exists, http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...r-LFRP-lawsuit
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  25. #594
    Lone Coyote ClydeCoulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    first we need to make sure we have the correct facts then one person can write them up in a uniform style, then others can fact check.
    ...
    the thread exists, http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...r-LFRP-lawsuit
    ^^^ THIS ^^^
    Last edited by ClydeCoulter; 08-07-2012 at 03:55 PM.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  26. #595

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    Quote Originally Posted by RonRules View Post
    "Instead of Brent Tweed, Charlie Webster or Paul LePage would serve as the spokesperson for the delegation and announce the votes cast for president."

    It's like Brent Tweed can't read results?!!

    Charlie Webster has experience reading results I guess.
    the delegate chair speaks to media AND REPORTS VOTES at RNC for the state. They don't ask every individual. Last time it was reported from RNC that our guys' votes were not acknowledged by most delegation chairs. So they didn't exist as far as the rest of the world knew.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  27. #596
    Lone Coyote ClydeCoulter's Avatar
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    I just read the response of the Maine delegation to the RNC in your new thread, sailingaway, MAINE freakin' ROCKS !
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  28. #597

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    Breaking:

    "ORDER by Judge David O. Carter: (See document for details.) Court GRANTS Defendants' Motion to Dismiss (Dkt. 7), but dismisses WITHOUT PREJUDICE. Because the Court grants Defendants' Motion to Dismiss, the Court also DENIES Plaintiffs' Ex Parte Application to Expedite Trial (Dkt. 16). (See document for details.) The Court will afford Plaintiffs a third and final opportunity to attempt to sufficiently plead a violation of Section 1971(b) of the Voting Rights Act. See Schreiber Distributing Co. v. Serv-Well Furniture Co., 806 F.2d 1393, 1401 (9th Cir. 1986). Because the Court grants Defendants' Motion to Dismiss, the Court also DENIES Plaintiffs' Ex Parte Application to Expedite Trial 16 . Plaintiffs shall file an amended complaint, if at all, on or before August 20, 2012. (rla) (Entered: 08/07/2012)"
    Statistics don't lie, people do.

  29. #598

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    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    the delegate chair speaks to media AND REPORTS VOTES at RNC for the state. They don't ask every individual. Last time it was reported from RNC that our guys' votes were not acknowledged by most delegation chairs. So they didn't exist as far as the rest of the world knew.
    Exactly. They'll let our delegates go to the convention, if we allow the guy who will misrepresent the votes be the delegate chair. Either way, we'd essentially have 0 delegates. This needs to be fought.

  30. #599

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    UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
    CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
    SOUTHERN DIVISION
    DELEGATES TO THE REPUBLICAN
    NATIONAL CONVENTION ET AL.,
    Plaintiffs,
    vs.
    REPUBLICAN NATIONAL
    COMMITTEE ET AL.,
    Defendants.

    Case No.: SACV 12-00927 DOC(JPRx)
    ORDER GRANTING DEFENDANTS’
    MOTION TO DISMISS

    Section 1971 of Title 42 of the United States Code is part of a landmark civil rights
    statutory scheme, commonly referred to as the “Voting Rights Act,” which Congress enacted to end the violence and discrimination that plagued minority voters in Congressman Ron Paul’s home state of Texas and other parts of this country. See McCain v. Lybrand, 465 U.S. 236, 243, 243 n.11 (1984); Morse v. Republican Party of Virginia, 517 U.S. 186, 213 (1996) (“Congress passed the Voting Rights Act of 1964 because it concluded that case-by-case enforcement of the Fifteenth Amendment, as exemplified by the history of the white primary in Texas, had proved ineffective to stop discriminatory voting practices in certain areas of the country.”); South Carolina v. Katzenbach, 383 U.S. 301, 308 (1966) (“The Voting Rights Act was designed by Congress to banish the blight of racial discrimination in voting, which has infected the electoral process in parts of our country for nearly a century.”); Elections, 13D Fed. Prac. & Proc. Juris. §
    3576 (3d ed.) (citing 42 U.S.C. § 1971 as part of comprehensive legislation “to provide effective remedies against discrimination in the conduct of elections” that began “with the Civil Rights Act of 1957, and with broadening amendments in 1960, 1964, 1965, and 1970”). “The historic accomplishments of the Voting Rights Act are undeniable.” Nw. Austin Mun. Util. Dist. No. One v. Holder, 557 U.S. 193, 201 (2009). “When it was first passed, unconstitutional discrimination was rampant and the ‘registration of voting-age whites ran roughly 50 percentage points or more ahead’ of black registration in many covered States.” Id.; see also Nixon v. Herndon, 273 U.S. 536, 541 (1927) (lawsuit challenging Texas statute “forbid[ding] negroes to take part in a primary election”).
    Six years ago, Congressman Ron Paul voted against reauthorizing the Voting Rights Act.1 Ironically, his supporters now bring this lawsuit under the very statutory scheme he tried to end.
    After reviewing the moving papers and oral argument, the Court GRANTS Defendants’ Motion to Dismiss (Dkt. 7), but dismisses WITHOUT PREJUDICE. Because the Court grants Defendants’ Motion to Dismiss, the Court also DENIES Plaintiffs’ Ex Parte Application to Expedite Trial (Dkt. 16).
    Statistics don't lie, people do.

  31. #600
    Lone Coyote ClydeCoulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonRules View Post
    Breaking:

    "ORDER by Judge David O. Carter: (See document for details.) Court GRANTS Defendants' Motion to Dismiss (Dkt. 7), but dismisses WITHOUT PREJUDICE. Because the Court grants Defendants' Motion to Dismiss, the Court also DENIES Plaintiffs' Ex Parte Application to Expedite Trial (Dkt. 16). (See document for details.) The Court will afford Plaintiffs a third and final opportunity to attempt to sufficiently plead a violation of Section 1971(b) of the Voting Rights Act. See Schreiber Distributing Co. v. Serv-Well Furniture Co., 806 F.2d 1393, 1401 (9th Cir. 1986). Because the Court grants Defendants' Motion to Dismiss, the Court also DENIES Plaintiffs' Ex Parte Application to Expedite Trial 16 . Plaintiffs shall file an amended complaint, if at all, on or before August 20, 2012. (rla) (Entered: 08/07/2012)"
    What does this mean? "the Court also DENIES Plaintiffs' Ex Parte Application to Expedite Trial"
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

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