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Thread: MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT: Lawyers for Ron Paul Lawsuit NOTE: Having the lawsuit not up 4 debate

  1. #301

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    Can someone please tell me if there is a money bomb being organized to support this legal effort? If there really is as much evidence as they claim, shouldn't this be a priority of the grassroots? Thanks in advance.



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  3. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptruthp34 View Post
    Can someone please tell me if there is a money bomb being organized to support this legal effort? If there really is as much evidence as they claim, shouldn't this be a priority of the grassroots? Thanks in advance.
    The Lawyers for Ron Paul team are doing all this work pro-bono and are not asking for money. They do encourage everyone to donate to help delegates get to Tampa since all this legal work is being done to help them. To donate to help delegates go here: http://delegatesponsor.eventbrite.com/

  4. #303

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    Quote Originally Posted by RDM View Post
    The Lawyers for Ron Paul team are doing all this work pro-bono and are not asking for money. They do encourage everyone to donate to help delegates get to Tampa since all this legal work is being done to help them. To donate to help delegates go here: http://delegatesponsor.eventbrite.com/
    Kudos to every one of them!

  5. #304

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    For all the geeks out there:

    http://www.fec.gov/law/feca/feca.pdf#page=139


    word!
    So you gave up on this:
    H
    elp with documenting voting rights violations and election fraud abuses!?
    Shame. Nothing encourages crime than not punishing it. You are letting them get away with it.FAIL.


    Quote Originally Posted by orenbus View Post
    If I had to answer this question truthfully I'd probably piss a lot of people off lol, Barrex would be a better person to ask he doesn't seem to care lol.


  6. #305

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    Check this out. If this is true, that's a lot of delegates. I wonder how many of them used to be Romney people.

    "The Federal Delegates Case is up to about 450 delegate plaintiffs courageously challenging the old guard GOP on the federal statutes regarding the delegate's unbound status. The Liberty Movement is alive and well and we are still in it to win it!"

    http://www.dailypaul.com/242936/hope...-450-delegates
    Last edited by Sentinelrv; 07-03-2012 at 12:10 AM.

  7. #306

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentinelrv View Post
    Check this out. If this is true, that's a lot of delegates. I wonder how many of them used to be Romney people.
    I wonder how many of them are alternates though.

  8. #307

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentinelrv View Post
    Check this out. If this is true, that's a lot of delegates. I wonder how many of them used to be Romney people.

    "The Federal Delegates Case is up to about 450 delegate plaintiffs courageously challenging the old guard GOP on the federal statutes regarding the delegate's unbound status. The Liberty Movement is alive and well and we are still in it to win it!"

    http://www.dailypaul.com/242936/hope...-450-delegates
    Before someone starts screaming they are lying scumbags, kill them etc:
    Those delegates that they are talking about are not necessarily those who are elected to go to Tampa. Some of them were cheated of their spots etc. There is a good chance that some of them will be dismissed as plaintiffs but all this doesnt mean that lawsuit is wrong or it is failure.
    DONT PANIC (someone will have a towel in that large group)

    *People make assumptions and go on a tangent .
    So you gave up on this:
    H
    elp with documenting voting rights violations and election fraud abuses!?
    Shame. Nothing encourages crime than not punishing it. You are letting them get away with it.FAIL.


    Quote Originally Posted by orenbus View Post
    If I had to answer this question truthfully I'd probably piss a lot of people off lol, Barrex would be a better person to ask he doesn't seem to care lol.


  9. #308

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    PACER has updated the case information. It now lists the attorneys for the defendants:

    Charles H Bell
    Bell McAndrews and Hiltachk
    455 Capitol Mall, Ste 600
    Sacramento, CA 95814
    916-442-7757
    Fax: 916-442-7759
    Email: cbell@bmhlaw.com
    LEAD ATTORNEY
    ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

    Brian T Hildreth
    Bell McAndrews and Hiltachk LLP
    455 Capitol Mall Suite 600
    Sacramento, CA 95814
    916-442-7757
    Fax: 916-442-7759
    Email: bhildreth@bmhlaw.com
    ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

    They are listed as defense for all defendants. Also, a motion to Intervene has been filed by the Plaintiffs. Opposition to that motion has been filed by Defendants. Description of Motion to Intervene: http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossa.../intervene.htm

    Also, Defendants have filed a Motion to Dismiss the case. That's going to be big. Hearing on Dismissal set for August 6 at 8:30am at the Reagan Courthouse in Santa Ana CA.

    Points of defendant's motion to dismiss:
    -Plaintiffs do not state a plausible claim for relief
    -Plaintiffs do not allege the fraud with enough particularity - (Rule 9b) Fraud or Mistake; Conditions of Mind. In alleging fraud or mistake, a party must state with particularity the circumstances constituting fraud or mistake. Malice, intent, knowledge, and other conditions of a person's mind may be alleged generally.
    -Suit should be dismissed because it's an internal party issue
    - Plaintiffs are not entitled to be "unbound" and ignore results of primary elections

    That's the GOP's basis for their motion to dismiss. Flimsy arguments but standard.
    Last edited by devil21; 07-06-2012 at 02:46 PM.
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  10. #309

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    Can you cut-n-paste or screen shot from pacer?

    Thanks for the update!

  11. #310

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    Here's a bit about the attys for the defendants :

    Our experienced attorneys provide legal services to several Fortune 500 companies and national and state trade associations representing a broad cross-section of businesses and professions. In addition to our work on over 100 state and local initiative campaigns over the last two decades, Bell, McAndrews & Hiltachk, LLP has also represented three California Governors, several Constitutional officers, and Members of Congress. Our litigation practice is highlighted by an extensive appellate practice, including cases argued before the California Supreme Court by two of our partners.
    http://bmhlaw.com/practice-areas.php...atedlitigation

  12. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Can you cut-n-paste or screen shot from pacer?

    Thanks for the update!
    No point in doing that. Im paraphrasing what Im reading. More info on the dismissal motion shortly.

    Eta: It's a pretty scathing Motion and the lawyers that wrote it clearly don't think too highly of Mr. Gilbert and his Plaintiffs. Many veiled insults throughout the motion. Defendant's attorneys are trying to get it dismissed based on the complaint itself not being sufficient according to Fed Rules of Civil Procedure, not on any factual basis. Unfortunately, I think they may be right. The complaint is very vague in parts and federal complaints require a specificity as to "who, what, when, where, why, how", not just broad conclusary statements. We shall see.
    Last edited by devil21; 07-06-2012 at 04:26 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    Internet shills exposed: (Yes, there are plenty on RPF)
    http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2012/10/...eyre-real.html

    Why most RPF members are against the US involvement with Israel explained by Mini-Me:
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=218093
    No anti-semitism, just logic.

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  13. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    No point in doing that. Im paraphrasing what Im reading. More info on the dismissal motion shortly.

    Eta: It's a pretty scathing Motion and the lawyers that wrote it clearly don't think too highly of Mr. Gilbert and his Plaintiffs. Many veiled insults throughout the motion. Defendant's attorneys are trying to get it dismissed based on the complaint itself not being sufficient according to Fed Rules of Civil Procedure, not on any factual basis. Unfortunately, I think they may be right. The complaint is very vague in parts and federal complaints require a specificity as to "who, what, when, where, why, how", not just broad conclusary statements. We shall see.
    up to the judge.

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  14. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    No point in doing that. Im paraphrasing what Im reading. More info on the dismissal motion shortly.

    Eta: It's a pretty scathing Motion and the lawyers that wrote it clearly don't think too highly of Mr. Gilbert and his Plaintiffs. Many veiled insults throughout the motion. Defendant's attorneys are trying to get it dismissed based on the complaint itself not being sufficient according to Fed Rules of Civil Procedure, not on any factual basis. Unfortunately, I think they may be right. The complaint is very vague in parts and federal complaints require a specificity as to "who, what, when, where, why, how", not just broad conclusary statements. We shall see.
    I would think the specificity would be found in the plaintiffs affidavits. With over 100 plaintiffs, the complaint is too big to be specific on every point. At least that would be my layman's take on it.
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  15. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by jay_dub View Post
    I would think the specificity would be found in the plaintiffs affidavits. With over 100 plaintiffs, the complaint is too big to be specific on every point. At least that would be my layman's take on it.
    I agree and I think that may be a valid argument for Gilbert in explaining why he did not go into too many specifics in the complaint. If he were to go into detail regarding every allegation, the complaint itself could be the size of a phone book, or at least a novel.
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  16. #315

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    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    No point in doing that. Im paraphrasing what Im reading. More info on the dismissal motion shortly.

    If you could, I for one would sure like to read what's been filed?

    Thanks!

  17. #316

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    If you could, I for one would sure like to read what's been filed?

    Thanks!
    If you wish to pay me then Im happy to give you a Paypal address. PACER access is free but pulling down pages and documents is not. I spent $10 just reading these docs earlier. Every filed pleading is in pdf format and I am charged by the page and capturing and downloading and all that gets expensive. You and anyone else can sign up for PACER. Actually, the Lawyers should already have this stuff posted. I shoudn't be the one providing updates on this thing. The Lawyers pages should already have this stuff up and spread around. They get it before I do!
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

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  18. #317
    Member eleganz's Avatar
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    the lawsuit is already online in pdf for free...

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B42o...T0U/edit?pli=1
    Los Angeles County Republican Party (the largest GOP central committee in the nation)
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  19. #318

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    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    up to the judge.
    Regardless, they'll be given time amend the complaint to cure it, or it would be astonishing. However complaints don't need to be that specific.

    Under Bell Atlantic, however, merely pleading a possibility of recovery is not enough.
    The duty is to furnish factual “allegations plausibly suggesting (not merely consistent with)” an
    “entitlement to relief.” 127 S. Ct. at 1966 (internal quotations omitted). Bell Atlantic calls this
    the “Rule 8 entitlement requirement” — the “threshold requirement of Rule 8(a)(2) that the
    ‘plain statement’ possess enough heft to ‘show that the pleader is entitled to relief.’” Id.
    3

    The Second Circuit in Bell Atlantic had taken the view that: “The factual predicate that is
    pleaded does need to include conspiracy among the realm of plausible possibilities” (425 F.3d at
    111 (emphasis added)). The Supreme Court held that a mere-possibility standard does not
    satisfy the Rule 8 entitlement requirement because a possibility of relief is something less than a
    plausibility of relief. See 127 S.Ct. at 1966 (“An allegation of parallel conduct ... gets the
    complaint close to stating a claim, but without some further factual enhancement it stops short of
    the line between possibility and plausibility of ‘entitlement to relief.’”).
    http://www.scotusblog.com/movabletyp...ng%20Rules.pdf

    this was a tightening of the pleading rules, but it doesn't mean list all the factual allegations.
    Last edited by sailingaway; 07-07-2012 at 09:36 AM.
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  20. #319

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    New case info is up on PACER now.

    7-6-12 - Notice of E-filing deficiencies.
    NOTICE TO FILER OF DEFICIENCIES in Electronically Filed Documents RE: MOTION to Dismiss Case 7 , Response in Opposition to Motion,,,,,,,,,, 6 . The following error(s) was found: Local Rule 7.1-1 No Certification of Interested Parties and or no copies. In response to this notice the court may order (1) an amended or correct document to be filed (2) the document stricken or (3) take other action as the court deems appropriate. You need not take any action in response to this notice unless and until the court directs you to do so. (db) (Entered: 07/06/2012)

    7-9-12
    07/09/2012 9 CERTIFICATION AND NOTICE of Interested Parties filed by Defendants All Defendants, identifying None. (Bell, Charles) (Entered: 07/09/2012)
    07/09/2012 10 ORDER by Judge David O. Carter: DENYING PLAINTIFF'S EX PARTE APPLICATION TO INTERVENE 4 : (See document for details.) Thus, if Plaintiff wishes to file an Amended Complaint containing the changes outlined in the Ex Parte, Plaintiff is free to do so under Rule 15. If Plaintiff fails to timely file such an Amended Complaint, this Court will analyze Defendant's Motion to Dismiss (Dkt. 7) based only on the Complaint filed on June 11, 2012. (rla) (Entered: 07/09/2012)
    (devil21: Judge basically saying Plaintiffs can file a new complaint adding in whatever was left out previously if done quickly.)

    7-10-12
    07/10/2012 12 FIRST AMENDED COMPLAINT against defendants Delegates to the Republican National Convention amending Complaint - 1 ; filed by plaintiffs Delegates to the Republican National Convention (rla) (Additional attachment(s) added on 7/12/2012: # 1 SUMMONS ISSUED) (rla). (Entered: 07/12/2012)
    07/10/2012 21 DAY Summons Issued re FIRST Amended Complaint 12 as to All Defendants. (rla) (Entered: 07/12/2012)
    (devil21: Yep, new complaint filed next day with additional allegations and probably additional Plaintiffs. I havent reviewed new complaint but we all know what the new shenanigans pulled were.)

    7-11-12
    NOTICE REGARDING PLAINTIFFS FIRST AMENDED COMPLAINT filed by Defendants, et al
    (devil21: Defendants attorneys accepting service of amended complaint)

    7-12-12
    MINUTE IN CHAMBERS by Judge David O. Carter: Order Reinstating Defendant's Motion to Dismiss and Setting Briefing Schedule. Plaintiff shall file an Opposition to Defendants' Motion to Dismiss (Dkt. 7) on or before noon on July 20, 2012. Defendants shall file a Reply, if at all, on or before noon on July 27, 2012. The Court does not alter the hearing date of 8:30 a.m. on August 6, 2012. (mt) (Entered: 07/12/2012)
    (devil21: Judge ordering a response in opposition to Motion to Dismiss by 7-20-12. Gilbert needs to file a counter to the motion to dismiss by then.)

    ---------------
    The legal wrangling is about to start. I still think parts of the complaint are overly vague and a judge is free to throw out sections of a complaint instead of dismissing the entire case. SCOTUS has ruled many times that federal civil suits are not to be a contest between lawyers to see who can write the best pleadings and win based on that, but rather are to be decided on the case merits and a deficient side given every opportunity to present their case. Hopefully Gilbert has tightened up his complaint with the newly amended complaint.
    Last edited by devil21; 07-15-2012 at 03:50 PM.
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  21. #320

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    I don't understand lawyer talk. Is it good or bad for us?

  22. #321

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    Seems to be standard back-and-forth for the most part. Looks like in the amended complaint he made it clear which plaintiffs are RNC delegates and which were state and district delegates :
    http://electionfraudremedy.com/07-10..._COMPLAINT.pdf

  23. #322

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrishW View Post
    I don't understand lawyer talk. Is it good or bad for us?
    My impressions in English; (worth what they cost you)

    Judge; Hey Gilbert, you're not clear in your filings so I'm going to let you re-file....Until I read your new complaint I'm not going to issue an ex-parte order.

    Gilbert re-files..

    RNC say's ;"We did nothing wrong"

    Judge schedules motions hearing and gives filing deadlines.

    Hearing still set for 6 August 8:30am

  24. #323

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    So its good. The judge is going to hear the case. I was afraid it would just be thrown out.

  25. #324

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrishW View Post
    So its good. The judge is going to hear the case. I was afraid it would just be thrown out.
    Not necessarily. The Motion to Dismiss is still pending and the judge is free to rule on that however he decides. He can dismiss the Motion completely, he can grant it in part and deny it in part (throw out some parts of the complaint while leaving other parts intact), or dismiss the case entirely. It appears that the August 6 hearing is for oral arguments on the Motion to Dismiss. The judge will have to rule pretty quickly after that if there's to be any progress on the merits of the case prior to the RNC. It gets a little sticky at that point since the judge has many options but the system runs slowly....
    Last edited by devil21; 07-15-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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  26. #325
    Member eleganz's Avatar
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    If the judge is allowing a re-file then that means he wishes to take this case seriously otherwise he could've dismissed it already on the merit that the 'complaint' wasn't 'complaint-y' enough.
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  27. #326

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleganz View Post
    If the judge is allowing a re-file then that means he wishes to take this case seriously otherwise he could've dismissed it already on the merit that the 'complaint' wasn't 'complaint-y' enough.
    My experience says that's not accurate. He would have to rule on the Motion to Dismiss first. Federal judges are, by SCOTUS ruling, supposed to give the Plaintiff fair opportunity to fix a defective complaint (or at least opportunity to argue that it's not defective) prior to dismissing it. A judge can't pre-emptively throw out a civil suit. It's generally not within a judge's discretion to simply decide whether a complaint is "good enough" as filed without giving each side an opportunity to present motions. After a Motion to Dismiss is filed and the Plaintiff given the chance to argue against it, the judge can then do whatever he/she feels is within the law. In other words, a judge can't sit down and read a complaint then dismiss it out-of-hand because he doesn't like what's in it with no input from the parties to the suit.

    eta: In this case, the judge gave leave (opportunity) to Plaintiff to amend the complaint after the Motion to Intervene was denied. The court has that discretion. The court does not have discretion to throw out a case without proper motions being filed, particularly in Federal court where rules are strict and judges are anal.
    Last edited by devil21; 07-15-2012 at 07:28 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    Internet shills exposed: (Yes, there are plenty on RPF)
    http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2012/10/...eyre-real.html

    Why most RPF members are against the US involvement with Israel explained by Mini-Me:
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=218093
    No anti-semitism, just logic.

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  28. #327

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCGOPer_for_Paul View Post
    I hate to throw cold water, or maybe ice, on this lawsuit, but as far as this being a FEDERAL issue, there is no case.

    See, the RNC cannot bind any delegate to any candidate. The party itself cannot bind a delegate to a candidate. That's already been established.

    The problem is that STATE LAW can bind delegates to candidates. The election of the President is not a national election, it is 50+ state elections. Primaries/caucuses are different in every state.

    If you are a delegate from a state which had a primary which binds delegates based upon that primary result, your case is with your state. A Federal ruling as no jurisdiction on your state election law. The PARTY isn't forcing you to vote for Romney, your STATE is. Your STATE has delcared that delegates represent the "will of the voters". The PARTY cannot stop you from voting for someone else at the Convention, but you are in violation of STATE LAWS, and depending on state, you can be facing fines of $2,500 - $10,000 as well as jail time. Also, the party then is in violation of STATE law and they have penalties as well...ballot status issues and the like. Hence the reason for PARTY discipline for not voting your forced "pledge".
    I get this and understand it perfectly. And trying to be clever I think there is a way around it but the delegates would face consequences that are unpredictable. I believe that any deviation of the candidate, that is, Romney from the platform/policy that he ran during the primary of that state to the present policy can and should require that the delegation and delegates review and revise their agency. So just my 2 cents, if Romney now is saying REPLACE OBAMACARE then I say that is not the Romney that won the primaries and delegation and delegates should or could motion their delegations to REPLACE him. Just saying.

  29. #328

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCGOPer_for_Paul View Post
    That is EXACTLY what I said.

    The RNC CANNOT tell a delegate how to vote. Delegates are NOT bound by the Republican Party, but a delegate can be bound by their State. Does the delegate HAVE to vote the way s/he is bound by their state? NO. BUT, they are subject to criminal and civil penalties, and the PARTY is subject to violations of election law.

    The 2008 case becomes an issue between that delegate and the State of Utah.

    Is it possible that Ron Paul COULD get the delegates and win the nomination at Convention? YES. However, states where delegates went against the binding LAWS could deny the Republican candidate (Paul) ballot access BECAUSE the delegates at the convention did not represent the will of the people of said state and that state's elections board decrees that (Paul) is a fraudlent candidate.
    Extremely interesting

  30. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by romancito View Post
    I get this and understand it perfectly. And trying to be clever I think there is a way around it but the delegates would face consequences that are unpredictable. I believe that any deviation of the candidate, that is, Romney from the platform/policy that he ran during the primary of that state to the present policy can and should require that the delegation and delegates review and revise their agency. So just my 2 cents, if Romney now is saying REPLACE OBAMACARE then I say that is not the Romney that won the primaries and delegation and delegates should or could motion their delegations to REPLACE him. Just saying.
    Exactly why the forced signing of pledges under the pain and penalty of perjury is invalid. Now the flipper flips, and the votes may well flip.
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  31. #330
    Member eleganz's Avatar
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    If any delegates face FINES for breaking state law and voting out of their binding on the first ballot and nominating Ron Paul, I will be one of the first fellow supporters to DONATE to help alleviate those fines. IMO, going to jail is worth it if Ron Paul is the nominee...it may not be the same for others though.



    Also if all of a sudden a state wants to enforce penalties for breaking a delegate binding, it is incredibly petty especially when Utah let it slide in 2008.
    Last edited by eleganz; 07-15-2012 at 08:32 PM.
    Los Angeles County Republican Party (the largest GOP central committee in the nation)
    -57% of the executive board is liberty
    -43% of the executive committee is liberty
    -40% of the central committee is liberty

    Getting involved at the local level is the most important thing you can do to WIN

    be ACTIVE, be EFFECTIVE, be ORGANIZED, be STRATEGIC, be VICTORIOUS.

    "Let it not be said that we did nothing"
    -Ron Paul

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