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Thread: The Border Wall: Keeping us all in

  1. #1

    The Border Wall: Keeping us all in

    Illegal Immigration and Unintended Consequences

    Jesse Walker has an intriguing blog post about data concerning illegal immigration. The most fascinating part to me discusses an analysis concluding that illegal alien crackdowns and border fencing has actually increased the illegal immigrant population in the U.S. By making it more risky for undocumented migrants to come in, the border walls have discouraged the back-and-forth movement that used to prevail across the Rio Grande. So more illegal aliens come and don’t go back than before.

    Overall, net illegal immigration has decreased, and the deportation rate has nearly doubled since Obama took office. The decline seems mostly to do with the economy, however, and this along with the unintended incentive created by border security for illegal immigrants to remain in the United States confirms any suspicions we might have that immigration controls, like practically all other government controls, do not work as advertised...
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock



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  3. #2
    The most fascinating part to me discusses an analysis concluding that illegal alien crackdowns and border fencing has actually increased the illegal immigrant population in the U.S.
    The estimated number of illegal aliens in the US has fallen- not risen- going from 12.6 million to 10.3 according to some estimates. Interesting that the link above says it has risen and then lists reasons it has gone down with fewer entering and more being deported. Fewer jobs available has had an effect as well.
    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society...ion-ebbs-video
    The Mexican population in the United States peaked at a net 12.6 million in 2007. By 2011, it had fallen to 12 million.

    The report analyzed data from five Mexican government sources and four US government sources, including census records and community and population surveys from both countries. Its finding: The net decline in the Mexican immigrant population is almost entirely driven by a decline in the number of illegal immigrants entering the US. The number of legal immigrants from Mexico has stayed the same.
    The figures in this link refer to Mexicans in the US- legally and illegally. It says that the total has fallen and those here illegally have declined while those here on a legal bases has stayed the same.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-01-2012 at 11:44 AM.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  4. #3
    Still 10.3million too many illegals. Deport them all.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by JebSanderson View Post
    Still 10.3million too many illegals. Deport them all.
    Are you prepared to hire police or military to go around and check everybody's ID to determine who "should" and "should not" be here and deport everyone without papers? We could raise your taxes to help pay for this force. Thank you for offering to help pay for it. Would that support liberty- or infringe on it? Do you have your papers handy? About 40% of all those in the country illegally entered on a legal basis - students, vacationers, work permits, etc and over stayed.

    More from the article I linked earlier:
    The standstill in Mexican immigration seems to be a result of the weakened US economy in which jobs are harder to find, heightened border control, greater danger crossing the border illegally, and a rise in deportations. Other factors include an improved Mexican economy and a decline in birthrates in Mexico.

    “There has been a decrease in apprehensions at the border, which points to the fact that fewer people are crossing the border,” says Pew's Ms. Cohn.

    In 2005, more than 1 million Mexicans were taken into custody trying to cross the US border. By 2011, that number decreased by more than 70 percent.

    Meanwhile, deportations of illegal Mexican immigrants have jumped sharply. In 2010, nearly 400,000 unauthorized immigrants were deported – 73 percent of them Mexicans.

    Although many Mexican immigrants who have been deported say they plan to try to return to the US, a rising share say they won’t.

    A survey by Mexican authorities found that 20 percent of repatriated labor migrants said they would not return to the US in 2010, as opposed to just 7 percent who said the same thing in 2005, according to the Pew study.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-01-2012 at 12:01 PM.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JebSanderson View Post
    Still 10.3million too many illegals. Deport them all.
    You can't deport them all. You have to reduce the many incentives that entice them to stay in country they really do not not want to be in.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    You can't deport them all. You have to reduce the many incentives that entice them to stay in country they really do not not want to be in.
    Eliminate all the incentives and deport the ones who still won't leave.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JebSanderson View Post
    Eliminate all the incentives and deport the ones who still won't leave.
    What if I'm housing someone? Are you going to invade my home to kidnap them? Don't I have a right to invite people into my home?
    "You cannot solve these problems with war." - Ron Paul

  9. #8
    You cannot just go around asking for everyone's ID. If they get pulled over, and do not fork over any identification, and a background check shows they are here illegally, boot em.
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by mczerone View Post
    What if I'm housing someone? Are you going to invade my home to kidnap them? Don't I have a right to invite people into my home?
    There are many ways of catching an illegal without having to violate your home. Things such as requiring proof of citizenship/legal residency for:
    • school registration
    • Drivers license application
    • Applying for benefits
    • Getting a CCW
    • Opening a bank account
    • Flying
    • Registering for selective service
    • Applying for college
    • Filing a lawsuit

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by No Free Beer View Post
    You cannot just go around asking for everyone's ID. If they get pulled over, and do not fork over any identification, and a background check shows they are here illegally, boot em.
    Exactly, you don't have to check everyone's ID. There are already enough places where ID must be provided or should be mandated to receive government services.

  13. #11
    I don't really get why they would need a fence to keep people in, or for that matter keep people out.

    The fence is a non-issue.

  14. #12
    Democrats may have enough votes to halt Trump's emergency declaration.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...D=ansmsnnews11

    Four Republicans — Sens. Susan Collins, Thom Tillis, Lisa Murkowksi and Rand Paul — have said they plan to vote in favor of terminating the national emergency, giving Democrats the 51-vote majority they need to approve the resolution in the upper chamber.

    The Senate needs to vote on the resolution within 18 days of receiving it from the House, given the procedure outlined in the National Emergencies Act.
    - SUPPORT FREE TRADE, SMUGGLE -

    2 + 2 = 5.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Democrats may have enough votes to halt Trump's emergency declaration.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...D=ansmsnnews11

    Four Republicans — Sens. Susan Collins, Thom Tillis, Lisa Murkowksi and Rand Paul — have said they plan to vote in favor of terminating the national emergency, giving Democrats the 51-vote majority they need to approve the resolution in the upper chamber.

    The Senate needs to vote on the resolution within 18 days of receiving it from the House, given the procedure outlined in the National Emergencies Act.
    Can't that just be vetoed?

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    Can't that just be vetoed?
    Yes, and they don't have the votes for an override.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Yes, and they don't have the votes for an override.
    Seems like a highly misleading headline then. "Democrats may have enough votes to halt Trump's emergency declaration."

    Fake news?

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    Seems like a highly misleading headline then. "Democrats may have enough votes to halt Trump's emergency declaration."

    Fake news?
    Propaganda.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #17
    Seasonal workers obtain work permits to come here in accordance with the law. Why would "stepped up enforcement" prevent them from returning home when they are following the rules?
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    Seasonal workers obtain work permits to come here in accordance with the law. Why would "stepped up enforcement" prevent them from returning home when they are following the rules?
    Where do we have to go that is any better than here?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post

    Fake news?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Propaganda.
    Rand Paul Opposes Trump’s Emergency Declaration, Likely Providing Decisive Vote

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/03/u...rand-paul.html
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Rand Paul Opposes Trump’s Emergency Declaration, Likely Providing Decisive Vote

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/03/u...rand-paul.html
    And?

    There aren't enough votes for the veto override.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And?

    There aren't enough votes for the veto override.
    I don't know that.. Yet to be seen,,
    but this is interesting,,

    Sen. Rand Paul: I support President Trump, but I can't support this National Emergency Declaration
    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/sen-...cy-declaration
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  25. #22

    That opinion piece is too good not to post in full!

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Sen. Rand Paul: I support President Trump, but I can't support this National Emergency Declaration
    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/sen-...cy-declaration
    ...
    Published 2 hours ago - Last Update 1 hour ago
    Sen. Rand Paul: I support President Trump, but I can't support this National Emergency Declaration
    By Sen. Rand Paul - Fox News

    In September of 2014,* I had these words to say:*"The president acts like he's a king. He ignores the Constitution.* He arrogantly says, 'If Congress will not act, then I must.'

    Donald J. Trump agreed with me when he said in November 2014 that President Barack Obama couldn’t make a deal on immigration so “now he has to use executive action, and this is a very, very dangerous thing that should be overridden easily by the Supreme Court.”

    I would literally lose my political soul if I decided to treat President Trump different than President Obama. (Although, I’ll note, not one Democrat criticized Obama for his executive orders.)

    I support President Trump. I supported his fight to get funding for the wall from Republicans and Democrats alike, and I share his view that we need more and better border security.

    However, I cannot support the use of emergency powers to get more funding, so I will be voting to disapprove of his declaration when it comes before the Senate.

    Every single Republican I know decried President Obama’s use of executive power to legislate. We were right then. But the only way to be an honest officeholder is to stand up for the same principles no matter who is in power.

    There are really two questions involved in the decision about emergency funding. First, does statutory law allow for the president’s emergency orders, and, second, does the Constitution permit these emergency orders?* As far as the statute goes, the answer is maybe — although no president has previously used emergency powers to spend money denied by Congress, and it was clearly not intended to do that.

    But there is a much larger question: the question of whether or not this power and therefore this action are constitutional.*With regard to the Constitution, the Supreme Court made it very clear in Youngstown Steel in 1952, in a case that is being closely reexamined in the discussion of executive power.* In Youngstown, the Court ruled that there are three kinds of executive order: orders that carry out an expressly voiced congressional position, orders where Congress’ will is unclear, and, finally, orders clearly opposed to the will of Congress.

    To my mind, like it or not, we had this conversation. *In fact, the government was shut down in a public battle over how much money would be spent on the wall and border security. *It ended with a deal that Congress passed and the president signed into law, thus determining the amount.

    Congress clearly expressed its will not to spend more than $1.3 billion and to restrict how much of that money could go to barriers.* Therefore, President Trump’s emergency order is clearly in opposition to the will of Congress.

    Moreover, the broad principle of separation of powers in the Constitution delegates the power of the purse to Congress. *This turns that principle on its head.

    I, and many of my fellow members, called out President Obama for abusing executive authority. President Obama famously said that if Congress wouldn’t do what he wanted, he had his pen and his phone ready. *That was wrong.* Many of those voting now spent a good portion of their campaigns running ads against these words and actions of President Obama.* They will and should be condemned for hypocrisy if they vote to allow this because they want the policy or want to stand with the president in a partisan fight.

    Some are attempting to say that there isn’t a good analogy between President Obama’s orders or the Youngstown case.*I disagree.*Not only are the issues similar, but I think Youngstown Steel implications are even more profound in the case of emergency appropriations.*We spent the last two months debating how much money should be spent on a wall, and Congress came to a clear conclusion: $1.3 billion.*Without question, the president’s order for more wall money contradicts the will of Congress and will, in all likelihood, be struck down by the Supreme Court.

    In fact, I think the president’s own picks to the Supreme Court may rebuke him on this.

    Regardless, I must vote how my principles dictate. My oath is to the Constitution, not to any man or political party. I stand with the president often, and I do so with a loud voice.*Today, I think he’s wrong, not on policy, but in seeking to expand the powers of the presidency beyond their constitutional limits.*I understand his frustration. Dealing with Congress can be pretty difficult sometimes.*But Congress appropriates money, and his only constitutional recourse, if he does not like the amount they appropriate, is to veto the bill.

    I look forward to working for a constitutional way to deal with our border security issue.
    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/sen-...cy-declaration

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Rand Paul Opposes Trump’s Emergency Declaration, Likely Providing Decisive Vote

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/03/u...rand-paul.html
    I was speaking to the headline of the quoted article. This headline seems much more accurate.

    So not sure what point you are making?

  27. #24
    I don't know if you ever come here any more. But + rep.



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  29. #25
    Regardless, I must vote how my principles dictate. My oath is to the Constitution, not to any man or political party. I stand with the president often, and I do so with a loud voice.*Today, I think he’s wrong, not on policy, but in seeking to expand the powers of the presidency beyond their constitutional limits.*I understand his frustration. Dealing with Congress can be pretty difficult sometimes.*But Congress appropriates money, and his only constitutional recourse, if he does not like the amount they appropriate, is to veto the bill.
    He's right, you know.

  30. #26
    Your better off with borders closed then open unless you want a wave of massive migrants onto your country.
    Unless American politicians start inviting the migrants into their own homes then its better off with borders closed.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    Your better off with borders closed then open unless you want a wave of massive migrants onto your country.
    Unless American politicians start inviting the migrants into their own homes then its better off with borders closed.
    The thing about freedom is that neither you nor politicians gets to tell the rest of us what we would be better off with and then impose that on us against our wills. It's up to us each as individuals to decide what would make us better off. And as long as my pursuit of what I think would make me better off does not infringe on your rights, you are obligated to let me do it, even if you think it will really make me worse off.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    Your better off with borders closed then open unless you want a wave of massive migrants onto your country.
    Unless American politicians start inviting the migrants into their own homes then its better off with borders closed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    The thing about freedom is that neither you nor politicians gets to tell the rest of us what we would be better off with and then impose that on us against our wills. It's up to us each as individuals to decide what would make us better off. And as long as my pursuit of what I think would make me better off does not infringe on your rights, you are obligated to let me do it, even if you think it will really make me worse off.

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Superfluous Man again.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucille View Post

    Overall, net illegal immigration has decreased,

    That is not true! It is propaganda spewed out by open border advocates and anarchists. There is a huge surge in illegal border crossings which began near the the end [October] of 2018

    Border Crossings Climbing

    NPR’s “fact check” — like countless others — dismissed Trump’s claim as false because “illegal border crossings in the most recent fiscal year (ending in September 2018) were actually lower than in either 2016 or 2014.”

    What they aren’t telling you is border patrol agents apprehended more than 100,000 people trying to enter the country illegally in just October and November of last year. Or that that number is way up from the same two months the year before.

    Nor do they mention that last year, the border patrol apprehended more than half a million people trying to get into the country illegally. And that number, too, is up from the year before. LINK

    JWK



    Illegal immigration is now costing American citizens over $18 billion a year in healthcare costs alone! Far more than the measly $5.7 billion asked for to build a wall! LINK



  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    The thing about freedom is that neither you nor politicians gets to tell the rest of us what we would be better off with and then impose that on us against our wills. It's up to us each as individuals to decide what would make us better off. And as long as my pursuit of what I think would make me better off does not infringe on your rights, you are obligated to let me do it, even if you think it will really make me worse off.
    Exactly right.

    So therefore you do not have the right to import anybody, that will vote to take away my liberty or my property.

    Until such time you can prove that is not the case, with voting bans and repeal of the welfare state for instance, you do not have the right to import anybody you feel like.

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