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Thread: Europe's economic woes

  1. #1

    Europe's economic woes

    I quote this post from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard for two reasons.

    1) If you think that the USA has economic problems and that things are not so bad elsewhere, then this might be enlightening.

    2) It will become clear that he is not sympathetic to Ron Paul's economic policies. I'd be interested in your thoughts (if you know something about economics - I don't). How would you respond to what he is saying?

    Europe faces Japan syndrome as credit demand implodes

    Europe (minus Germany) looks more like post-bubble Japan each month.
    The long-feared credit crunch has mutated instead into a collapse in DEMAND for loans. Households and firms are comatose, or scared stiff, in a string of countries.

    Demand for housing loans fell 70pc in Portugal, 44pc in Italy, and 42pc in the Netherlands in the first quarter of 2012. Enterprise loans fell 38pc in Italy. The survey took place in late March and early April, and therefore includes the second of Mario Draghi’s €1 trillion liquidity infusion (LTRO).
    The ECB said net demand for loans had fallen "to a significantly lower level than had been expected in the fourth quarter of 2011, with the decline driven in particular by a further sharp drop in financing needs for fixed investment." Demand fell 43pc for household loans, and 30pc for non-bank firms.
    Mr Draghi told MEPs today that his three-year loans had at least averted a horrendous crunch. "Our LTROs have been quite timely and successful. I think buying time is not a minor achievement." He is certainly right about that. The mess he inherited from the Merkel/Sarkozy expropriations of bondholders in Greece, and the Trichet/Stark tightening of monetary policy was calamitous.
    This slump in loan demand is more or less what happened during Japan’s Lost Decade as Mr and Mrs Watanabe shunned debt. Zero interest rates did nothing. The Bank of Japan was "pushing on a string" (though it never really launched bond purchases with any serious determination).
    It is true that banks have slowed the pace of credit tightening, but they are nevertheless still tightening. "A banking crisis remains very much in play for much of the region," said David Owen from Jefferies Fixed Income.
    The credit squeeze is entirely predictable – and was widely predicted – given that banks must raise their core Tier 1 capital ratios to 9pc by July to meet EU rules, or face nationalisation. (The pro-cyclical folly of this beggars belief: by all means impose higher buffers, but not during a recession, and not by letting banks slash their balance sheets. The US at least forced its banks to raise capital, an entirely different policy since it does not lead to a lending crunch.)
    The IMF said last week that Europe’s banks would slash their balance sheets by €2 trillion – or 7pc – by next year. This amounts to an economic shock. The Fund said deleveraging on this scale at a time of sharp fiscal tightening risks a "bad equilibrium".
    Indeed it does. It ensures hell for countries containing 200m people, or more. Judging by the rise of Sinn Fein, the Dutch Freedom Party, the Dutch Socialist Party (hard-Left), France’s Front National, and some true fire-breathers in Greece, they victims will not readily put up with this.

    Julian Callow from Barclays Capital said there is no almost no historical precedent for the sort of deleveraging under way in the EMU periphery. Credit rose from 100pc of GDP to over 200pc in Ireland, Greece, Portugal, and Spain in the EMU boom. "This is far higher than in Japan during the 1980s. It is hard to find an historical parallel or any insight from economic theory for where we are going," he said.

    Mr Callow said Spanish houses are only halfway through their correction and are likely to fall another 20pc before clearing the overhang of stock. The shock for banks will be ugly. The Bank of Spain said yesterday that mortgages fell 49.6pc in February from a year ago.

    Mr Draghi called for a "Growth compact" today – but so did Chancellor Merkel, illustrating how meaningless such rhetoric can be. Mr Draghi’s plea is a cop out. The proper policy mix for Euroland – in as much as it is possible to devise policy for such a menagerie – is a moderate pace of fiscal tightening (much slower than now), offset by monetary stimulus a l’outrance. That means cutting rates to the zero-bound (0.5pc) and launching fully fledged QE until the M3 money collapse in Club Med is halted, and M3 for the whole eurozone is growing at 5pc.

    And no, the LTRO is not QE. It does not shift the risk onto the balance sheet of the central bank. It does not work through the quantity money mechanism (or at least, not efficiently). It concentrates the risk on the books of private banks, many of them engaged in a Hail Mary gamble on redemption by buying Spanish and Italian bonds with ECB money.
    Or one analyst said, the LTRO lets northern banks dump their bond holdings onto Club Med banks. The renationalisation of the eurozone financial system goes a step further.

    The LTRO "carry trade" is already revealing the sting in its tail in any case since the banks are by now underwater on a lot of bonds. What happens if and when they need to sell those bonds to cover debts falling due over the next year?
    Until the ECB conducts monetary policy with proper energy, calls for "Growth Compacts" from governments amount to humbug. The ECB needs to do its own work.

    We all know why it will not do so: because Hayekian romantics at the Bundesbank hold sway, and none of the other governors dare say boo. Live with the consequences.
    "Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand." - John Adams

    "He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind." - John Witherspoon


    Why I stand with Rand



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  3. #2
    how much trouble is this world really in . things are going to get much worse .

    thanks to the fed res and goldmansucks.

    http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/goldmansachs.php

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
    I quote this post from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard for two reasons.

    1) If you think that the USA has economic problems and that things are not so bad elsewhere, then this might be enlightening.

    2) It will become clear that he is not sympathetic to Ron Paul's economic policies. I'd be interested in your thoughts (if you know something about economics - I don't). How would you respond to what he is saying?
    Typical mainstream guy asking for government-managed economy!

    You see the problem with mainstream economists & theorists is that they don't understand the market very well, their solution to everything is - government, government & more government aka politicians & bureaucrats

    If you every study mainstream economics, which is mostly Keynesian, they'll always start with "how to cure a recession", I mean that's where story starts for them, & they show little concern or understanding of WHY the recessions occur & since as we know they are a cyclical phenomena, there HAS TO BE something wrong with the way we're doing things, right? But they don't want to admit this, they're like - recession occur & that's that & then we have to cure it - but just realize how would someone who does NOT know the cause be able to effectively cure the thing??? One CAN'T because one must first understand the causes & that's what Austrian Economics explains - how to have a system where cyclical recessions WON'T OCCUR!

    I don't know how familiar you are with Austrian Economics but you should definitely google "Austrian business cycle theory" to start or go to http://mises.org/ which is a great free resource for all those wanting to learn from basics to advanced economics

    Anyways, getting back to the article, he's just asking for the typical Keynesian rhetoric - don't cut governemnt spending, government should spend more & banks shouldn't be deleveraged & bubble needs to be kept up - they advocate this because they don't recognize that it's the artificially low interest-rates & fractional-reserve-banking which causes an inflationary boom, causing prices to rise TOO MUCH, which causes people to spend & borrow more, which eventually has to end somewhere & when it does, the prices try to shift back to where they should be & the Austrian mantra is let the prices adjust QUICKLY, we'll have a strong recession for a year or two while the mainstream pro-government-spending people want to "soften the landing" so to speak but the Austrian point is that such slow approach leads only to prolongation of the process & people are HURT MUCH MORE & obviously, Austrians would like to transition to a better & stable system somewhere down the line

    The simple Austrian point is that if government is spending then it is consuming economic resources like labor & capital that could OTHERWISE have been available to the private sector & as most of us know, private sector is much better in being productive so there's little justification for government-spending at all anyway

    I'd advise to you go through the basics, it's not that hard & then may be you'll be able get a handle at least on the basics of what is going on & ask specific questions if you have any because otherwise I'm just going to ramble

    Anyways, here's a nice book for anyone who wants understand how markets work & why government-intervention is NEVER the answer, it only makes things. It isn't directed at banking as such but rather deals with the most common fallacies peddled by pro-government people like "wars are good for economy", "speculators drive up prices", "businesses over-charging", "minimum wage laws", "government should save X industry", "government jobs" etc etc & it's written in plain English & is very concise & even though written in 1940s, all of the issues are still relevant, just goes to show that pro-government socialists/communists haven't progressed at all from their stupid arguments
    http://www.hacer.org/pdf/Hazlitt00.pdf
    May be you can jump to topics that interest you the most first to get started
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ILUVRP View Post
    how much trouble is this world really in . things are going to get much worse .

    thanks to the fed res and goldmansucks.

    http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/goldmansachs.php
    Ellen Brown

    Now, everything is falling into place

    That stupid woman & her stupidity has been shred to pieces by many free marketers already
    She believes in big government, more spending, welfare-state & most importantly, he dislikes gold-standard & what's her "solution" - instead of letting the Fed control the money...............let the Congress do it

    Oh! What an improvement! From those "evil" bankers to "honest, angelic, uncorrupt" politicians & bureaucrats

    That stupid woman stands diametrically opposed to everything freedom, free market & Ron Paul stands for; & the fact that you pay heed to such idiots explains a lot about why you support government-intervention & violation of property-rights! If you subscribe to such socialist idiots then there's little surprise that you support for all the same!

    Here's a couple of links that expose the stupidity of that naive woman -
    http://www.garynorth.com/public/department141.cfm

    http://www.radiofreemarket.com/blog/1/171

    http://thedailybell.com/548/Ellen-Br...continues.html
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  6. #5
    i really understand now , everyone in the world is stupid if you don't agree with them.

    i guess you didn't or can't read what was written.

    but facts don't count.

  7. #6
    Thanks for that, Paul or Nothing II.

    I've read a little about Austrian Economics and the business cycle, and have looked at stuff on Mises.org. I've even been intending to read Hazlitt's book for a few years now. I guess I'll have to just do it some time!

    But let me be specific.

    AEP says
    Demand for housing loans fell 70pc in Portugal, 44pc in Italy, and 42pc in the Netherlands in the first quarter of 2012.
    I say "That's great. It sounds like pretty much everybody who wants a loan and can afford one has got one. What's the problem?"

    AEP says
    This slump in loan demand is more or less what happened during Japan’s Lost Decade as Mr and Mrs Watanabe shunned debt.
    I say "People are shunning debt? Sounds good to me."

    AEP says
    Mr Callow said Spanish houses are only halfway through their correction and are likely to fall another 20pc before clearing the overhang of stock. The shock for banks will be ugly.
    I say "What exactly is going to happen to these poor banks? And is it wrong that it will happen to them?"

    AEP says
    Hayekian romantics at the Bundesbank hold sway
    I say "Is this really true? Are Austrian Economics really practiced by the Bundesbank?

    And AEP speaks a lot about the Japanese lost decade. Where can I read a good Austrian perspective on the Japanese lost decade? (I know that I can find stuff by googling, but is there anything you recommend?)
    Last edited by JohnM; 04-27-2012 at 01:29 AM.
    "Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand." - John Adams

    "He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind." - John Witherspoon


    Why I stand with Rand

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ILUVRP View Post
    how much trouble is this world really in . things are going to get much worse .

    thanks to the fed res and goldmansucks.

    http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/goldmansachs.php
    Do you have anything to offer other than ignorance & false inferences?

    I'm agnostic-atheist, Ron Paul is a Christian so obviously we disagree but I don't think he's stupid because of that but YOU are stupid, & it's not just me but many members here have called you stupid because of the stupid pro-government, anti-market, ignorant posts you have been making so if many people are calling you stupid then shouldn't you stop for a moment & re-assess the situation & introspect?

    Yes, facts, sure Ellen Brown has as many facts as Karl Marx had These are the kind of people who prey on the ignorance & stupidity of the masses, foster envy & insecurity in times of economic distress to push their personal agenda of big government socialism/communism & history is witness that there's no shortage of idiots who will buy into their propaganda - as they say propaganda often contains some truths too, otherwise it wouldn't sell!

    And as I've said, check the links I've posted, that woman is a big government socialist who believes in big government spending, welfare programs, opposes free markets & to top it all she dislikes the gold-standard instead her "solution" is to let the CONGRESS print money, oh yeah, those people who can't get anything done properly, yeah, let them have the printing presses, what a "solution"!

    You probably don't know what happened when Lincoln shoven his greencrap down Americans' throats, he flooded the country with paper, so much so that every "gold-dollar" was worth many "paper-dollars", it took massive contraction & panic of 1873 & about a decade to bring sanity to the situation!

    And it's funny, all your "sources" that you use to support your weak arguments are either mainstream propaganda &/or communist/socialist propaganda, either way it's always about more government power & force, more regulations, anti-market & anti-liberty; that says a lot about YOU

    If you actually bothered to understand Ron Paul's views then you'd be trying to learn about the markets & how they work but apparently you have little interest in learning, you already have your mind made up that government force & violation of others' liberties is the solution to everything
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
    Thanks for that, Paul or Nothing II.

    I've read a little about Austrian Economics and the business cycle, and have looked at stuff on Mises.org. I've even been intending to read Hazlitt's book for a few years now. I guess I'll have to just do it some time!

    But let me be specific.

    AEP says

    I say "That's great. It sounds like pretty much everybody who wants a loan and can afford one has got one. What's the problem?"

    AEP says

    I say "People are shunning debt? Sounds good to me."
    EXACTLY! See, that's the problem with them, something that you can see clearly, they just don't want to hear about it, they want people to continue borrowing otherwise they fear the recession! When people's brains are filled with economic propaganda & useless complex mathematical structures, they can't see the OBVIOUS!

    Yes, the markets are ALREADY overloaded with debt & that's why demand for loans is falling DESPITE low interest-rates. The reason the markets have taken on so much debt is due to earlier low-interest policies by the government, allowing cheap credit, which gets people to borrow more, which increases moneysupply & prices of things, higher prices are seen by the market as a sign of "shortage" (that's the market-mechanism) & producers overinvest, & when sooner or later the frenzy ends, the prices starts falling AS THEY SHOULD once the markets are overburdened with debt & they aren't willing to borrow anymore, so prices start falling, businesses start scalling back, overinflating asset-prices on people's books have to be reduced to proper market-rates & so on

    Now, in such a case a recession is INEVITABLE but what Keynesians prescribe is a dose of government spending to offset the fall in consumer-spending but that's stupidity because when government spends it blocks economic resources to that extent from the private sector, be it labor or capital so it's pointless anyway

    They don't understand that the price-rise & demand were BLOATED due to artificially low interest-rates by the central-bank as well as leveraging of fractional-reserve-banking since people & businesses borrowed & invested TOO MUCH - you see prices & profits are what tell market-particiants about the supply & demand situation of things - so let's say under a normal economy which is NOT managed by the government, as people save more money, interest-rates would go down due to ample lendable capital & when people are saving less, interest-rates would go up due to lower supply of lendable capital - but often in a managed-economy, what happens is that central-banks are ARBITRARILY deciding where the interest-rate should be & they usually end up keeping it too low because everybody likes booms, right - now, if people aren't actually saving money to justify such low rate then that misleads the markets & market-participants end up taking on debt & investments that are unsustainable in the long-run

    So it's totally a systemic issue, it's an issue of central-planning, it's an issue of fractional-reserve-banking which deceives market-participants into thinking that they richer than they actually are
    And just think about it, we've rejected central-planning agriculture & industry & elsewhere because it just doesn't work because prices are decided by supply & demand, government can't just dictate this thing should be $X, that thing $Y because it ALWAYS fails because prices are determined by what value each individual puts on something & central-planners can't possibly know the mind of every individual buyer & seller
    And interest is simply price of borrowing/lending so if we have rejected central-planning elsewhere then why have it in money? (you know, issuing money is a very profitable business for banks & governments )

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
    AEP says

    I say "What exactly is going to happen to these poor banks? And is it wrong that it will happen to them?"
    Well, there are two things
    1) what will happen
    2) what "should" happen

    Well, some of those banks have enough political connections then they'll get bail outs, which is how the government-controlled systems work, the politically-connected benefit at the expense those who are not

    Now, what "should" happen is they should be allowed to fail if they can't scrample enough capital in time
    The whole idea of freedom is about people taking responsibility for their themselves & their actions so if you make profits you deserve them, if you make losses then bear them; it's nobody's prerogative to take money from some people & give it to others, only that which is gotten out of VOLUNTARY transactions is what truly belongs to a someone.
    So accordingly, they took the risks, whether knowingly or unknowingly, now they must take responsibility for their actions; other banks will come into existence to meet the demand soon enough (well, as fast as they can weed through all the "regulations" & bureaucratic web )

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
    AEP says

    I say "Is this really true? Are Austrian Economics really practiced by the Bundesbank?
    Are you kidding me? Most of the Europe is about hardline socialist & supports centralized money & largely anti-free market (well, the true version of it)
    In fact, Hayek had argued for competing currencies, that there should free competition in money & anybody should be able to issue money & just like it happens elsewhere in the economy, sound currencies will be freely selected by the people & unsound ones will die out
    You know he has this book - "Denationalization of Money" so it's probably some weird reference in Hayek's idea of "European Integration"
    Besides, Hayek isn't necessarily seen as the "standard" by those who actually follow Austrian Economics but mainstream probably sees it as such because he won the Nobel

    Actually, Keynesianism is what pervades almost the entire world unfortunately & we can only hope that rise of Ron Paul will lead to an intellectual revolution on the issue of economics, not just in US but in the world with so many people around the globe that have gotten interested in this movement

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
    And AEP speaks a lot about the Japanese lost decade. Where can I read a good Austrian perspective on the Japanese lost decade? (I know that I can find stuff by googling, but is there anything you recommend?)
    Well, it was caused by the same stupid Keynesian policies, centrally controlled money & interest & when the recession hit, they lowered the interest-rates near zero................and now nearly two decades later, interest-rates are STILL near-zero, they can't raise them, if they do, it will prick the economy in a moment

    Japan is the height of Keynesian stupidity, & US & Europe has already embarked on that path, nearly two decades of trying to "stimulate" the economy with low-interest, & also 10s of "stimulus packages" & "infrastructure projects", enormous government-spending & debt & what not
    The ONLY reason Japan has survived without a disaster so far is because their people have very high savings-rate which allows the government to keep re-financing the debt but that is NOT the case with say US but Japan will go down too when others do, their debt is at disastrous levels

    I looked around & this one is short & simple - http://adamgmartin.com/Homepage/Essa...trianJapan.pdf

    This one puts in a little more details - http://reason.org/files/091666ffae05...5dc0f65caa.pdf

    I'd also urge you again to read "Economics in One Lesson"; if there's ONE book I'd wish the whole world should read & would probably make the world a little better place then it's this one, it's the ESSENCE of market-economics - http://www.hacer.org/pdf/Hazlitt00.pdf
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman



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  11. #9
    get a job that don't require you to read and understand things. she did not write the articles , she just put them out so people could read them .

    i would guess you were for the banks/brokers/ins companies bail outs , are you a banker or work for goldmansucks.

    i dislike neo-con's more than chickenhawks , not much difference in them .
    Last edited by ILUVRP; 04-27-2012 at 05:34 PM.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ILUVRP View Post

    i would guess you were for the banks/brokers/ins companies bail outs
    This statement alone should easily demonstrate what an idiot you are, to anyone who's ACTUALLY READ my posts on this forum

    Continue with your communism, idiots like you eventually get exactly what they deserve from their commie governments!
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  13. #11
    collapse in DEMAND for loans.
    Like that is a bad thing...

    From my perspective (I live in Croatia):
    We are under German influence sphere (Austrian Economics is still present in this part of a globe). One thing we did differently is that government would not bail out banks. It would bail out people.(if bank goes bankrupt people would get their money from banks assets and the rest from government). I know it is not perfect solution but it is far better than one that is implemented in US.

    Unlike US EU admitted that there are bubbles being created, inflation problem and debt crisis. Mostly thanks to Germany they are working on it. Not efficiently but it is at least something.

    Interesting factor:The last installment of WW1 reparations was paid on 3 October 2010
    Today I decided to get banned and spam activism on this forum...

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    Quote Originally Posted by orenbus View Post
    If I had to answer this question truthfully I'd probably piss a lot of people off lol, Barrex would be a better person to ask he doesn't seem to care lol.




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