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Thread: Quick "income tax " question

  1. #1

    Default Quick "income tax " question

    If we end income tax what taxes or forum of resourse do we use to pay for roads, railroads, bridges, school ect?

    I am trying to explain to my older brother and I want to have the correct answer.

    This is what I have said so far.

    Keep the fruits of your labor
    Income tax is not the only tax. It was a tax created to fund war and has only been increased on us as the years progress. 100 years of telling us how much they will take and how much we are aloud to keep! Time to end that!


    Thanks for help
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  3. #2

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    help
    If you are in the North Texas area, join our page to get active and fight for Liberty!
    http://www.facebook.com/groups/28828...8287801289033/

    #LiveFree

  4. #3

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    Income tax doesn't pay for any of that.

    Roads- gas tax
    Education- property tax
    Railroads- most railroads are privately owned. Amtrak receives a gov't subsidy, but is going to be seeing private competition in Florida: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1372950.html
    My 2016 prediction: Hillary Clinton will NOT run for president.

    Rand Paul 2016

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulfollower999 View Post
    Income tax doesn't pay for any of that.

    Roads- gas tax
    Education- property tax
    Railroads- most railroads are privately owned. Amtrak receives a gov't subsidy, but is going to be seeing private competition in Florida: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1372950.html
    Education - Property tax. I would not argue in favor of that as a replacement. It denies people the ability to truly own private property and can render you homeless if you fail to pay for someone kids education.

    If you eliminate the income tax the federal tax revenue would be out the same as it was in 2000 through corporate and other taxes.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Education - Property tax. I would not argue in favor of that as a replacement. It denies people the ability to truly own private property and can render you homeless if you fail to pay for someone kids education.

    If you eliminate the income tax the federal tax revenue would be out the same as it was in 2000 through corporate and other taxes.
    I agree, but unfortunately thats how it is done today.

    Most of the revenue from the income tax goes toward military spending and interest on the debt.
    My 2016 prediction: Hillary Clinton will NOT run for president.

    Rand Paul 2016

  7. #6
    Member harikaried's Avatar
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    Ron Paul's position is to get rid of the federal income tax. The states take care of most of their roads and bridges, so if Ron Paul got rid of the federal income tax, roads and bridges would be just fine as it is now as the states take care of them.

  8. #7

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    Income tax is only used to pay the interest on the national debt. Without the central bank siphoning off the wealth of our nation, there would be no need for a personal income tax.

    http://www.devvy.com/notax.html
    Something, something, something...Whatever my rage for the day.

  9. #8

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    the govt has tarrifs, rents, operational fees etc. If you eliminate income tax without adding any other tax or fee you still have as much income as the US had in the late 1990s, including income tax. The problem is, since 2000 we have DOUBLED the size of govt, in good part, overseas, where the money doesn't even recirculate here and stimulate the economy.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear. -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  10. #9

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    Here watch this. It was made by a forum member in the last election cycle and has been viewed millions of times if you put all the mirror version views of it together, I am sure (it is hard to even find the correct one on youtube, people made so many copies.) Sadly, I'm not sure this is the original author because his channel videos are suddenly blocked, at least the remastered version of this is. So the quality isn't as sharp.



    speaking of Avaroth, however, watch this while you can, it keeps disappearing. Remember it was made LAST election cycle.... BEFORE the crash....

    Last edited by sailingaway; 04-15-2012 at 11:03 AM.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear. -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by KMX View Post
    If we end income tax what taxes or forum of resourse do we use to pay for roads, railroads, bridges, school ect?

    I am trying to explain to my older brother and I want to have the correct answer.

    This is what I have said so far.

    Keep the fruits of your labor
    Income tax is not the only tax. It was a tax created to fund war and has only been increased on us as the years progress. 100 years of telling us how much they will take and how much we are aloud to keep! Time to end that!


    Thanks for help
    All of those things can be privatized and funded voluntarily. Communized roads and schools are immoral and a terrible idea as we've seen in practice.

    All forms of taxation as well as tarrifs are immoral because they are an initiation of force on people and their property. Additionally, a forced monopoly over these services is immoral as well because it involves the initiation of force or the threat thereof on potential competitors.

    (This is not what Ron Paul proposes for the short term, but I think separation of government from these functions should be the end goal.)

  12. #11

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    INCOME TAXES have nothing to do with raising revenue to run the government. It has and always will be about paying the interest on the Federal Reserve monopoly money (transfer of the only real capital your labor) and social control of your spending habits via deductions that benefit the elite and their institutions.


    Wake up folks you have been duped for decades!

    WELCOME TO THE HOME OF THE LIBERATING TRUTH ABOUT THE INCOME TAX!





    and

    "100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt ... all
    individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services
    taxpayers expect from government."
    -Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan - January 15, 1984
    1984: Grace Commission Report under Ronald Reagan showed IRS is a fraud that collects taxes for the Banking Dynasties
    http://www.ronpaulforpresident2012.com/

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  13. #12

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    A sovereign people in a sovereign nation create their money as they need it.

    So let's say the cost of a new bridge is estimated at $10,000,000. An account is created for the amount of ten mil and it is used to pay for the project, which includes everything related to building the bridge: materials, labor, etc.

    What this does is expand the economy by putting new money into circulation by improving the vital infrastructure, which everyone benefits from.

    This, coupled with a completely government-run banking and credit system, eliminates taxation at every level. The people are now free to do whatever they want with every penny of their money without paying any taxes to government.

    This is called "Sovereign Money".

    Only slaves pay taxes.

    It's funny how the Constitution states that "Congress shall have Power to coin Money and regulate the Value thereof", yet we instead use a third-party, private monetary system that the government pays for by taxing us.

  14. #13
    Member Keith and stuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMX View Post
    If we end income tax what taxes or forum of resourse do we use to pay for roads, railroads, bridges, school ect?
    I don't know about where you live but where I live, personal income taxes don't pay for those things. Roads are mostly paid for by a variety of sources including local property taxes, state excise taxes, county property taxes, auto registration, state gas taxes, federal gas taxes and tolls. Railroads? Those are private where I live. If you are talking about Amtrak, privatize it and/or increase the fare. Bridges are mainly paid the same way as roads. Sometimes, bonds are used. My point is debatable, though. For example, schools get some federal money. However, my understanding is that schools spend around the same amount in compliance costs as they receive in federal money.

    I am trying to explain to my older brother and I want to have the correct answer.
    If you lived in rural New Hampshire, these questions wouldn't have even come up.

    This is what I have said so far.

    Thanks for help
    BTW, why did you post this to Grassroots Central?
    Last edited by Keith and stuff; 04-15-2012 at 12:22 PM.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by arisenagain View Post
    Wake up folks you have been duped for decades!

    WELCOME TO THE HOME OF THE LIBERATING TRUTH ABOUT THE INCOME TAX!
    The problem with these theories are that even if they are true, it doesn't matter. The government does not and has never followed their own laws. Even if taxation was illegal for most people, they are still going to do it. Proving to them that the income tax doesn't apply will do nothing. They can do whatever they want with almost zero chance of repercussion.

    Remember, they are effectively just the most successful gang/mafia in the region. The laws and elections act as a veil of legitimacy, but they are meaningless as we have seen over time.

    Even if there was some chance people could argue that they are illegal, the government would just pass a new law making them legal.

    I find all these legal theories to be a complete waste of time and a big distraction from the root problem of state power. In effect it gives more legitimacy to the government because they are holding the government laws as if they are legitimate but just currently being used/interpreted incorrectly. The initiation of force is always wrong, I don't care what they write down on pieces of paper.

  16. #15

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    Its so sad that people pay SO much money in income taxes but can't even name the things it goes to fund. I bet these same people know exactly how much their car payment or house payment/rent is. Its such a wonderful scam isn't it? I mean you get to suck all these money out of people and they'll mostly think its being used for their benefit.

    Here comes the truth: The banks buy the US debt with cash borrowed/created at 0% by THE FED. Your income tax dollars go mostly to pay the interest on the debt. the debt itself, when borrowed was used to fund the wars, useless departments handing out corporate welfare, and pork barrel spending. Its amazing, people just assume that so much money has got to be used for good things, its a democracy right. The people got to spend the money.

    The delusion is so pervasive, it infects even otherwise informed and intelligent people.

  17. #16

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    Ron Paul has said he doesn't want to replace the revenue from income tax with anything. He wants to cut spending instead. There is a fantastic interview on MSNBC about it i'll see if I can find.

    Last edited by twofootzero; 04-15-2012 at 11:25 AM.

  18. #17

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    I'm not a fan of the current system, so I would vouch for private property, private schools and private roads. This means, instead of paying taxes for all those things, you would have a competitive market for roads, education and railroads (we already have amtrak, but it is highly subsidized by government). Once we get government out of the way, magical things can happen :d

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by KMX View Post
    If we end income tax what taxes or forum of resourse do we use to pay for roads, railroads, bridges, school ect?

    I am trying to explain to my older brother and I want to have the correct answer.

    This is what I have said so far.

    Keep the fruits of your labor
    Income tax is not the only tax. It was a tax created to fund war and has only been increased on us as the years progress. 100 years of telling us how much they will take and how much we are aloud to keep! Time to end that!


    Thanks for help
    Taxes aren't the problem, it's the SPENDING, if the spending is reduced then government can manage with lower taxes

    In the short-term, he has talked about tariffs, (low) corporate-taxes, user fees for services but again, his emphasis is on CUTTING SPENDING & BALANCING THE BUDGET ASAP
    He may or mayn't be able to eliminate income tax straight away & he's even talked about flat 10% but his objective will be eliminate it as soon as possible; he'll also allow younger people to opt out of paying for SS & such so they can spending & investing their own money rather than government eating it up

    Here's the economic blue-print - http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issue...store-america/
    He'll cut 1 trillion in year 1, balance the budget by the 3rd year & by the forth year, start paying down the debt

    Quote Originally Posted by harikaried View Post
    Ron Paul's position is to get rid of the federal income tax. The states take care of most of their roads and bridges, so if Ron Paul got rid of the federal income tax, roads and bridges would be just fine as it is now as the states take care of them.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    the govt has tarrifs, rents, operational fees etc. If you eliminate income tax without adding any other tax or fee you still have as much income as the US had in the late 1990s, including income tax. The problem is, since 2000 we have DOUBLED the size of govt, in good part, overseas, where the money doesn't even recirculate here and stimulate the economy.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Income tax is only used to pay the interest on the national debt. Without the central bank siphoning off the wealth of our nation, there would be no need for a personal income tax.

    http://www.devvy.com/notax.html
    PLEASE stop believing & spreading conspiracy theories! I know there are plenty of conspiratorial garbage out there telling people "government pays interest to Fed" BUT they don't tell the FULL STORY! Yes, Treasury pays interest to the Fed & then what? They take it home? NO! Every year Fed hands over nearly all of it's "profits" back to the Treasury (which INCLUDES interest "paid" by Treasury + interest received on loans to banks, etc)

    So interest "paid" by the Treasury to the Fed, does NOT actually go anywhere, it comes right back to the Treasury + some more money at times

    Fed is bad as it is but that doesn't mean we start believing any conspiracy theory anyone puts out there!
    There is enormous inertia a tyranny of the status quo in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis actual or perceived produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  20. #19

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    I believe the income tax only helps produce 1 trillion a year in revenue for the gumbmint.

    Think about how much waste goes into that trillion...
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

  21. #20

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    Privatize everything. Once everything is private, fees will pay for all of it.
    My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right, tend to be unwilling or unable to accept blame )

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    Privatize everything. Once everything is private, fees will pay for all of it.
    I could be wrong but I don't think that OP is looking for that kind of an answer

    I'm assuming that OP is not yet immersed in libertarian philosophy & likely, neither is his brother, whom he's trying to convert so the answer "privatize everything" wouldn't exactly work, it'll probably freak out his brother & make him think that Ron is "kooky" like the media portrays him but obviously he's much more methodical than that
    There is enormous inertia a tyranny of the status quo in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis actual or perceived produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  23. #22
    Member Zippyjuan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Education - Property tax. I would not argue in favor of that as a replacement. It denies people the ability to truly own private property and can render you homeless if you fail to pay for someone kids education.

    If you eliminate the income tax the federal tax revenue would be out the same as it was in 2000 through corporate and other taxes.
    Income taxes today cover about one third of government spending with roughly another third from borrowing. The 2000 budget was $1.8 trillion and today it is $3.5 trillion or basically twice as big. If you want to use 2000 revenues to pay for today's government you need to cut $1.7 trillion from this (note that "discressionary spending" is $300 billion smaller than that amount):

    Mandatory spending: $2.173 trillion (+14.9%)

    $695 billion (+4.9%) Social Security
    $571 billion (+58.6%) Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending
    $453 billion (+6.6%) Medicare
    $290 billion (+12.0%) Medicaid
    $164 billion (+18.0%) Interest on National Debt


    Discretionary spending: $1.378 trillion (+13.8%)

    $663.7 billion (+12.7%) Department of Defense (including Overseas Contingency Operations)
    $78.7 billion (−1.7%) Department of Health and Human Services
    $72.5 billion (+2.8%) Department of Transportation
    $52.5 billion (+10.3%) Department of Veterans Affairs
    $51.7 billion (+40.9%) Department of State and Other International Programs
    $47.5 billion (+18.5%) Department of Housing and Urban Development
    $46.7 billion (+12.8%) Department of Education
    $42.7 billion (+1.2%) Department of Homeland Security
    $26.3 billion (−0.4%) Department of Energy
    $26.0 billion (+8.8%) Department of Agriculture
    $23.9 billion (−6.3%) Department of Justice
    $18.7 billion (+5.1%) National Aeronautics and Space Administration
    $13.8 billion (+48.4%) Department of Commerce
    $13.3 billion (+4.7%) Department of Labor
    $13.3 billion (+4.7%) Department of the Treasury
    $12.0 billion (+6.2%) Department of the Interior
    $10.5 billion (+34.6%) Environmental Protection Agency
    $9.7 billion (+10.2%) Social Security Administration
    $7.0 billion (+1.4%) National Science Foundation
    $5.1 billion (−3.8%) Corps of Engineers
    $5.0 billion (+100%-NA) National Infrastructure Bank
    $1.1 billion (+22.2%) Corporation for National and Community Service
    $0.7 billion (0.0%) Small Business Administration
    $0.6 billion (−14.3%) General Services Administration
    $0 billion (−100%-NA) Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP)
    $0 billion (−100%-NA) Financial stabilization efforts
    $11 billion (+275%-NA) Potential disaster costs
    $19.8 billion (+3.7%) Other Agencies
    $105 billion Other
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Un...federal_budget
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  24. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by damiengwa View Post
    Its so sad that people pay SO much money in income taxes but can't even name the things it goes to fund. I bet these same people know exactly how much their car payment or house payment/rent is. Its such a wonderful scam isn't it? I mean you get to suck all these money out of people and they'll mostly think its being used for their benefit.

    Here comes the truth: The banks buy the US debt with cash borrowed/created at 0% by THE FED. Your income tax dollars go mostly to pay the interest on the debt. the debt itself, when borrowed was used to fund the wars, useless departments handing out corporate welfare, and pork barrel spending. Its amazing, people just assume that so much money has got to be used for good things, its a democracy right. The people got to spend the money.

    The delusion is so pervasive, it infects even otherwise informed and intelligent people.
    Not true. In 2010, interest on the debt accounted for only $164 billion in government expenditures while income tax collections were $1.2 trillion which means under 14% of income tax revenues go to paying interst on the debt.
    I am Zippy and I approve of this message. But you don't have to.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thom1776 View Post
    A sovereign people in a sovereign nation create their money as they need it.

    So let's say the cost of a new bridge is estimated at $10,000,000. An account is created for the amount of ten mil and it is used to pay for the project, which includes everything related to building the bridge: materials, labor, etc.

    What this does is expand the economy by putting new money into circulation by improving the vital infrastructure, which everyone benefits from.

    This, coupled with a completely government-run banking and credit system, eliminates taxation at every level. The people are now free to do whatever they want with every penny of their money without paying any taxes to government.

    This is called "Sovereign Money".

    Only slaves pay taxes.

    It's funny how the Constitution states that "Congress shall have Power to coin Money and regulate the Value thereof", yet we instead use a third-party, private monetary system that the government pays for by taxing us.
    oh please! This BS peddled by the likes of BIll Still ("Money Masters", "Secret of Oz", etc) & others have been debunked so many times here, please search

    This is the most ridiculous "solution"!

    "Oh, we can't trust those evil bankers but we can trust our honest, angelic, uncorrupt politicians & bucreaucrats"

    BS I say! Bankers often have an iota of brain but politicians & bureaucrats are usually worse, they run the whole thing down into the ground even faster by overissuing the money, it has happened many times in history in many place!
    Notably, during the Revolutionary War when Continental Congress massively devalued the Continental paper-currency, that's where "not worth a Continental" phrase comes from! And that was precisely the reason Constitution does NOT allow the government to issue paper-money, re-read what you've posted, it "power to COIN money"!
    US didn't have any government issued paper-currency until Emperor Lincoln waged an unnecessary war & shoved his Greencrap down people's throats by deceit to pay for his war, he massively devalued it by overissuing it & it took years for Congress to clean up the mess he left & monetary order

    Don't think there are "no taxes", there will be INFLATION-TAX, money is NOT different from any other commodity in the sense that when supply of something increases, it's prices fall, same with money, the more government issues, the more it loses it's value, which is exactly what's been going on for a while now

    And another MYTH that seem to do peddled by uninformed conspiracists out there is that government "pays interest" to Fed, NO, IT DOESN'T, it's more or less an accounting procedure because Fed hands over all of its "profits" back to the Treasury every year, which INCLUDES the interest the Treasury had supposedly "paid" + other incomes of Fed like interest received on loans to banks, etc

    If we'd "sovereign money" instead of the current system then that 15 trillion worth of debt could actually be in circulation as "money" & the US Dollar would've been worth Zimbabwean Dollar or something

    Giving government the power to issue money is outright stupidity, they can't run anything well, we need competing currencies chosen on & provided by the market through free choice of people
    Last edited by Paul Or Nothing II; 04-16-2012 at 01:04 PM.
    There is enormous inertia a tyranny of the status quo in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis actual or perceived produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman





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