Thanks. I could not find anything to support the original story that Iceland was forgiving mortgages either.Originally Posted by RonPaulIsGreat
Thanks. I could not find anything to support the original story that Iceland was forgiving mortgages either.
Freedom is a state of mind. Nobody can take that from you unless you let them.
Failing to recognize that it is actually impossible to 'pay your debt' when there is not even a definition of what the unit of accounting for said debt is, that is the dollar;this is the basis for your inaccurate restating of my position.So now you're just going to resort to false-accusations? That's really pathetic!
Paying your debt does NOT equal to "propagating the current system"; it means NOT STEALING from the savers but as I've said before, most people don't mind stealing as long as it benefits them, which is why there isn't a fair system in the first place!
When the value of the money you are using to pay with changes over time, then by definition so too must the debt.
So you pretend that I am arguing for people to get a free ride at the expense of savers, when in reality I am arguing for restoration of a sound money based on a unit of account that is linked to a real commodity or set of commodities and all of the resulting fallout thereof, including the possibility that some number of individuals would end up having to pay a lessor amount of 'dollars' than they are currently obligated to do so.
Deliberately conflating my proposition of a mass reset in global finances and a possible debt jubilee of some nature with stealing only works if you think the ones who run and benefit from the fraudulent monetary system somehow deserve to keep their wealth.
I do not argue for future taxes to be collected to pay off past debt, I argue for criminals who have robbed the public at large for decades to be exposed and stripped of their positions, power, and prestige.
You seem to argue that everyone must pay back every 'dollar' they owe to these same individuals instead, and let them keep it.
Last edited by WilliamC; 04-16-2012 at 06:11 AM.
Ron Paul: He irritates more idiots in fewer words than any American politician ever.
NO MORE LIARS! Ron Paul 2012
It's IRRELEVANT, you borrow, you increase moneysupply, inflation is caused & savers lose purchasing-power, when you pay back moneysupply decreases, purchasing-power of the savers goes back up
Value of money ALWAYS changes, depending on supply & demand, irrespective of the system so that's not a good excuse at all
There's nothing to "pretend", when you borrow, you increase moneysupply cause inflation & are essentially taking purchasing-power from savers so it's only meet that you pay back & then moneysupply will decrease & theire purchasing-power increases
That's a separate where I agree but that has little to do with the fact that borrowers have already consumed at the expense of the savers & increased moneysupply & taken purchasing-power from savers
If you borrow $100000, you will have increased moneysupply by that much if you only pay 50000 back then the 50000 remains in circulation & thereby the you'll have robbed savers of 50000 worth of purchasing-power
Again, you're under this delusion that what you pay back goes only to the bank, NO, they only get the interest, which was pretty low anyway, rest gets liquidated but decrease in moneysupply caused by paying back the loan returns purchasing-power the borrowers had borrowed indirectly from the savers
The inflation is already created when borrowers borrow & savers are ALREADY robbed off their purchasing-power & the only to mitigate that is to repay & thereby decrease moneysupply
And you seem to argue that people should get free stuff at the expense of savers, which is just another form of socialism & theft
There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman
you gotta admire the icelanders... they even told the bankers to piss off.
No, at the expense of criminals.
Why do you insist that I wish to punish savers when it is the bankers who would be held responsible for paying back fraudulent debts with their own personal wealth, not the wealth of taxpayers or other individuals.
If you can't get bast debt forgiveness not being identical to stealing from savers then all you sound like is an apologist for the bankers, not an advocate for savers.
Besides, tell me exactly how much interest savers are being paid by banks?
Oh that's right, when you take into account inflation they actually lose wealth over time.
Maybe if the monetary system was reformed to one based on sound money your argument would have some merit, as it is it is only based on the imaginary value of a dollar.
That's why much of the debt in existence is imaginary as well, and should be treated as such.
Ron Paul: He irritates more idiots in fewer words than any American politician ever.
NO MORE LIARS! Ron Paul 2012
Do you believe they are going to bankrupt the banks to give people free homes?
If not, then how will the banks stay in business?
The government will print the money to pay off these mortgages. Guess who suffers then? Not the bankers who get that freshly created money first. Not the people who just got free homes. Oh, that's right, everyone else who got nothing out of the deal but higher prices for food and gas and housing. Sounds like a great deal.
It's not JUST the bankers that they told to piss off, those borrowers ripped off the SAVERS as well
Because guess what, when you borrow, it bring NEW MONEY into existence, creates inflation & dilutes the purchasing-power of the money held by others, you're essentially taking purchasing-power from savers; on the other hand, when you pay back your loan, you decrease the moneysupply which you'd earlier caused to rise when you borrowed & thereby savers are returned their purchasing-powers
If you don't pay back then the increase in moneysupply you'd caused remains as it is, which means you stole the purchasing-power from the savers but didn't return it back
Ok, either are you're just really ignorant of how the system works or you're just putting a front of ignorance just to justify freeloading at the expense of the savers
Ok, let's go slowly!
When new money is created, it increases moneysupply, right?
It causes inflation, right?
Meaning people are able to buy fewer things with it that they otherwise could've (loss of purchasing-power), right?
So read carefully - under the current system, most of the money is CREATED when people borrow from banks & when they repay, it DESTROYES the money which was created earlier; bankers are only left with the differential interest, that's all
So when you borrow, you're causing INFLATION, essentially, ripping off the savers so it's your duty to repay & thereby decrease the moneysupply; if you don't then inflation that YOU'D CAUSED by borrowing remains as it is & savers must continue paying higher prices, essentially, you'll INDIRECTLY stolen purchasing-power from the savers
Here's the bottomline - bankers CAN'T increase moneysupply if borrowers don't borrow & there's no inflation on that count!
There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman
I don't know exactly what the government of Iceland is going to do, not any details, nor am I arguing for any specific plan.
I am merely stating that what ever process is used to restore the US economy, and by implication the global economy as well, to a sound money system based on defined commodities that can be physically quantified and exhibit a countable relation between the number of units of said money and some physically extant substance, I can easily imagine rearrangements of wealth such that large amounts of current debt would be simply abolished, forgiven, eliminated, ignored, or whatever.
As it is our money system has no connections between the numbers used as dollars, which are nothing more than a 'unit of accounting' according to the Fed, so our monetary system is not linked to anything tangible in the physical world. Indirectly this implies that mortgage contracts, which are valued in dollars, are not measured in any tangible, physical way either, even though a mortgage is tied to a specific parcel of real estate.
Add on top of this the securitization of mortgages by secondary markets to the extent that many people being are being foreclosed on by banks which do not even hold the original paperwork of the mortgage itself, and you begin to get a feeling for how far the deception goes.
If one cannot accept that this needs to happen to even begin to make real, humanitarian progress towards a better future and blindly insists that every single individual who has ever signed their name to a piece of paper is obligated to pay back some undefined number of dollars as a result and if that doesn't happen in every case then some undefined 'saver' is being extorted, then I can't see how that is any different than simply arguing for the status quo.
And we all know who does that...
By having their assets re-valued at true market value through open, public auction to pay off depositors, including any assets obtained illegally by employees of the banks or of the bank holding corporations or of the government regulators charged with overseeing said corporations.
There will be plenty of people willing to act as honest bankers in a sound money system so long as they have the security to do so but not the ability to do otherwise, the trick is to get most people to understand when they are being ripped off, and who is ripping them off.
Not if the corrupt politicians who try to pass such legislation are either voted out of office or arrested and jailed for actual crimes they have already committed.
If the system doesn't change from the top down, and those responsible for the problems held accountable and forced to pay for their crimes, then of course any sort of government passed so called debt reduction plan would be the exact opposite and I would be agreeing with you.
Not at all. If the corrupt bankers, politicians, lawyers, lobbyists, businessmen and so forth don't go to jail then I am not advocating debt forgiveness. That would be more likely a socialist/communist takeover as you and I would fear.
No free rides for anyone, especially anyone who knowing tried to milk the system by borrowing more than they knew they could repay to try to fraudulently default on it. But when that starts from the top down the rules will change too, and the zero-sum game that most people have been stuck in all their lives will finally come to an end and we can get about the work of liberating our species and our planet.
We can't do that if the core of the world's wealth and power is held largely (not completely though by any means, NO ONE knows the future) by a few thousand psychopathic parasites who honestly believe it is their god-given or self obvious destiny to control all the rest of us. For most of us that's so incredulous a statement that one simply rejects it out of hand, but any cursory study of history will show that wars are always about the greed and power and wealth, and that's as true today as it was 10,000 years ago.
But most people don't want WWIII, even most people who for their entire working lives have supported the psychopathic wanna-be rulers with delusions of godhood, so I tend to be optimistic that we won't destroy ourselves and that there won't be some cataclysmic end to world history and that we can actually make things better as time goes on instead of worse.
Others seem to think that if the bankers don't get paid back every 'dollar' they are owed then somehow we are all going to end up being the poorer for it. Well the way I see it we are already the poorer for it now and the bankers got the government to give them taxpayer money instead, and still some argue that it is all the fault of the borrower so we should just suck it up and let them keep it.
I think most people will make the right choice most of the time, but we'll see
Last edited by WilliamC; 04-16-2012 at 02:27 PM.
Ron Paul: He irritates more idiots in fewer words than any American politician ever.
NO MORE LIARS! Ron Paul 2012
+1
What you say will likely happen but the other side of the coin is that even if they do let more banks go bankrupt, it still hurts the savers (who did NOT act irresponsibly) because borrowing will become harder because so much capital will have been destroyed & production will slow down & prices of things might go up radically so either way, those who made bad decisions benefit at the expense of those who acted responsibly
Any such catastrophic depression might likely lead to more government & more socialism & totalitarianism, it won't necessarily lead to sound money because most people don't even know what it is, the "leaders" might offer another fraudulent system & things will only worsen, that's why it's only meet that those who acted irresponsibly take responsibility for their actions
The only path to sound money is persuasion & people aren't always in the mood to listen or be persuaded when conditions are really bad, they usually make all the wrong choices! Great Depression is proof of that, FDR stole people's gold, he gave America misery & more misery & still more misery through his socialist policies & America kept re-electing him until he died
There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman
Sound money policy is coming with Ron Paul's election and his supporters. Colorado is considering sound monetary policy, Utah has already voted for it, and IIRC there are several other States considering it. As far as FDR, I agree with you with one exception. They didn't have the Internet. They didn't have access to the right information.
"Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul
Brother Jonathan
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
