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Thread: FDA to require prescription for antibiotics in livestock

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    But why can't the market decide? I'd rather have cheaper beef - I don't really care about the antibiotics in my beef as long as it's cheaper.
    I agree let the market decide, like they decided in the pink slime debate. I raise my own so it is a non issue with me but many would be taken aback if they were informed of how their food is grown and processed.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
    James Madison

    "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by craezie View Post
    People should be free to manage their time, bodies and property in any way they see fit so long as it does not harm others rights. There are those, however, who would exploit the environment, health and lives of others to make a buck. I'm sorry, but factory farmers fit in that category, and are doing it on taxpayers' dimes to boot. Food supply is the very cornerstone of our individual lives and corporate society. When it is allowed to be destroyed in ways that are irreversible, the only people that win are Monsanto and government power brokers.
    Do you see what you did there?



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    What you don't seem to understand is that it will drive the small-to-medium sized farmers out of business. Then, all we will have is corporate farming.
    50% of U.S. food production already comes from the 2% of farms. The medium sized farmers who are trying to compete with the factory farmers were out of business decades ago. The primary culprit was not requirements to produce food ethically, but favoritism and agribusiness subsidies which made it impossible to compete. What you don't seem to understand is how the market for foods have changed, and how small farmers are more able to adapt to those demands. Many small family farmers have gone into organics or direct-market models, which is far more profitable and what a lot of people want anyway. CSAs and farmers markets are bigger than ever.

    Besides, some things are just plain wrong. Creating biohazards while taking taxpayer money is wrong. Your argument reminds me of the garment industry a few years back justifying their child labor because they couldn't make a profit without it.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by puppetmaster View Post
    I agree let the market decide, like they decided in the pink slime debate. I raise my own so it is a non issue with me but many would be taken aback if they were informed of how their food is grown and processed.
    They didn't decide anything in the pink slime fiasco. That was nothing but a baseless liberal slam job by the media who know how exactly to manipulate people with emotion over fact.

    And yes, most people don't want to see their beef slaughtered. They'd rather not clean out their own septic tanks, too. They pay other people to handle the nastier bits of life for them. That's how capitalism is supposed to work.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by craezie View Post
    50% of U.S. food production already comes from the 2% of farms. The medium sized farmers who are trying to compete with the factory farmers were out of business decades ago. The primary culprit was not requirements to produce food ethically, but favoritism and agribusiness subsidies which made it impossible to compete. What you don't seem to understand is how the market for foods have changed, and how small farmers are more able to adapt to those demands. Many small family farmers have gone into organics or direct-market models, which is far more profitable and what a lot of people want anyway. CSAs and farmers markets are bigger than ever.

    Besides, some things are just plain wrong. Creating biohazards while taking taxpayer money is wrong. Your argument reminds me of the garment industry a few years back justifying their child labor because they couldn't make a profit without it.
    LOL - definitely liberal infestation. Child labor laws - really? ROTFL!

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    What would you say if you found out that this law was actually written by Monsanto for the benefit of large corporate factory farms to the detriment of small and medium sized farms? You are ignoring the fact that a large factory farm has no issue hiring a full-time vet to go from site to site and write prescriptions, but that it is very expensive for smaller and medium sized farms.

    So logically, the only solution is to take the government power away from the brokers.
    You are right, there is no solution to any of this so long as 1. Monsanto and other corporate interests are allowed to manipulate government regulators and laws to their own whims and 2. the travesty that is government farm subsidies (mostly received by large factory farms) exists

    However, I still maintain that regulating antibiotic use (and GMOs for that matter) is an appropriate use of government authority because of the greater danger to public health and the environment. In my belief, it is 100% necessary to protecting my rights to life and property.

    The fact that our government cannot do any of its appropriate roles correctly, due to extreme corruption, is another issue.

  9. #37
    Buy natural beef (and other farm products). Patronize farmers who do it right. Vote with your dollars. Support third party verification organizations that certify farms as natural or organic (no "government certification" necessary, the market can do it better).

    If there is enough demand, the market will make it work. It is only through uniformed consumers who don't care about how their food was produced as long as it is cheap that the producers have been able to get away with these unwise practices.

    Find a local farmer who does it right and buy from them. And don't say you can't afford it. If you drink coffee or soda everyday, have cable and high speed internet, a data plan on your phone, and a pantry full of processed high fructose corn sugar junk then you can afford it, you just need to prioritize what's important to you, wholesome food or all those other luxuries.

    Transparency in farming is the answer, and finding a local farmer who grows food the right way is the best way to do it. It is harder for your farmer to get away with doing things the wrong way when he has his customers coming to his farm to buy his products.

    Support CSA in your community.

    Spend time growing your own food.

    All of these actions will help to move our food system to a more natural and wholesome production system without needing government intervention or programs or mandates or certifications.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    But why can't the market decide? I'd rather have cheaper beef - I don't really care about the antibiotics in my beef as long as it's cheaper.
    That's rather short-sighted.

    What if you or one of your kids got an infection that the hospital couldn't treat properly because of the anti-biotics in the cheap meat you buy and it ended up costing hundreds of thousands in medical bills, or worse, if it caused death?

    I mean, I think you should be free to put whatever you want in your body and damage you and your kids however you want, but does that mean it is the best decision?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by craezie View Post
    However, I still maintain that regulating antibiotic use (and GMOs for that matter) is an appropriate use of government authority because of the greater danger to public health and the environment. In my belief, it is 100% necessary to protecting my rights to life and property.

    The fact that our government cannot do any of its appropriate roles correctly, due to extreme corruption, is another issue.
    So giving government more power to regulate and subsidize, you admit, leads to greater use of anti-biotics and other damaging substances in meat..

    So why do you want to give government more power to regulate when you know it is going to lead to greater use of the substances you are trying to minimize?

    Ron Paul uses the argument with illegals - If we stopped subsidizing them and instead just let them come here to work, then there wouldn't be an immigrant problem because the only ones who would come would be ones who are willing to work and support themselves or their family. They would provide cheaper labor and thus cheaper and more plentiful goods. But there would still be immigrants.

    If we stopped subsidizing and regulating the farming industry there would still be anti-biotics, but they wouldn't be abused nearly as much and the problems that come with abusing the anti-biotics wouldn't exist for the most part.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  12. #40
    I don't think that any laws pass anymore that aren't written and approved by lobbyists first. So for those who support this, you might want to consider that and think about how this raises the cost for smaller farmers. It also opens the door for more federal meddling where it doesn't belong.
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
    Yet I can't afford $200 to go to a seminar--Matt Collins



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  14. #41
    Antibiotic resistant bacteria would likely be less of a problem if the government would lower the barriers into research for alternative treatments such as phage therapy, and stop directing research through their grants. Anyway, will this be the death blow for the dollar menu?

    For those claiming "mind your own business", I think that sometimes public health concerns do require intervention. If the retard next door to me has built an explosive meth lab, I'm going to want to shut it down by force before he kills us all.
    Last edited by brandon; 04-12-2012 at 03:49 PM.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    It's official...this forum has been over run with liberals who only support Ron because of his position on foreign policy and the war on drugs. I grew up on a family farm, and I can tell you that the government doesn't have the right to tell us how to farm, period! Government sucks.
    Maybe you missed my post where I said you can motivate farmers to produce real food without the use of any regulations. I don't see how this isn't consistent with Ron Paul.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I don't believe the propaganda about medical costs. Again, Americans are living longer now than at any point in history, including the era in time when 85% of the population farmed their own food. Anecdotal evidence supports my case, not yours. I think that preservatives and antibiotics make the odds of meat being contaminated smaller, not bigger.

    But more importantly, you're saying here is that when it really comes down to it, you don't really mind if the government takes away choices in the market, as long as you think society is better off as a result, using criteria weighed as you believe they should be weighed.

    This is definitely the liberal infestation. When it comes down to it, they believe they are smarter than the rest of the population, and therefore it's ok to use government to do things their way. After all, it's for the common good.
    People may be living longer now, but medical costs have gone way up. This is because people are eating unhealthier food and the medical industry only covers up the problems, it doesn't cure anything. The facts support my case, not yours.

    Eating meat with antibiotics is roughly the same as getting a shot of antibiotics. If you required a shot of antibiotics to eat meat, I'm sure you would prefer to eat something else.

    Also, what is wrong with my idea of eliminating all regulations and putting in a system that will motivate farmers to produce real food without any regulations?

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post
    People may be living longer now, but medical costs have gone way up. This is because people are eating unhealthier food and the medical industry only covers up the problems, it doesn't cure anything.
    I'm not commenting on any other part of this discussion. This however is the absolute truth. The SAD (standard American diet) diet is creating a lot of health problems with a lot of people very early on. And then it is being masked by pharmas.

    Even Dr. Paul comes out and says this.
    ..Oo.o~ Rights are Divine ~o.oO..

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post

    Eating meat with antibiotics is roughly the same as getting a shot of antibiotics. If you required a shot of antibiotics to eat meat, I'm sure you would prefer to eat something else.
    I'll remember this next time I get a bacterial infection. I'll skip the doctors visit and just eat hamburger all day. Thanks!

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by craezie View Post
    Most farmers these days only care about making a buck, and are destroying the biodiversity of nature by planting genetically modified plants which spread into the natural gene pool, destroying the environment through over-use of toxic pesticides and herbicides, and creating deadly super-bacteria through irresponsible livestock management.

    I am in no way a "liberal", and I don't even 100% agree with RP on foreign policy or drugs. People should be free to manage their time, bodies and property in any way they see fit so long as it does not harm others rights. There are those, however, who would exploit the environment, health and lives of others to make a buck. I'm sorry, but factory farmers fit in that category, and are doing it on taxpayers' dimes to boot. Food supply is the very cornerstone of our individual lives and corporate society. When it is allowed to be destroyed in ways that are irreversible, the only people that win are Monsanto and government power brokers.
    Most farmers care about making enough money to support their families. Hardly anyone gets rich from farming, except for a few big corporate farmers. A law like this will only hurt the small farmers, not the big corporate farmers. Even going beyond this particular law, where is the Constitutional authority for the FDA to even exist? I didn't see that when I read through article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution. Where is the Constitutional authority for the EPA? The EPA has no authority to regulate herbicides and pesticides, because the EPA has no authority to even exist. Also, how exactly do you expect farmers to farm without using herbicides and pesticides?

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by azxd View Post
    A true free market, as it stands now, would bring with it hardship and death, long before the market could react, IMO.
    If I was the kind of guy that put out of context quotes in my sig line in a lame attempt to try and embarrass people, that one would be a killer.

    But I'm not that kind of guy.

    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by brandon View Post
    I'll remember this next time I get a bacterial infection. I'll skip the doctors visit and just eat hamburger all day. Thanks!
    A hamburger is about as effective as most medication you get from the doctors, and has much less side effects. If you want real results, I'd go to an herbologist.



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  23. #49
    We wouldn't be faced with this problem if we just raised the NATIVE ruminant of North America for meat production - BISON!!

    1. They do not get sick nearly as much as cattle do since they are adapted to this environment
    2. They utilize the available grass in a pasture more efficiently and effectively (they eat a wider range of grasses and also do not hang around water sources like cattle do)
    3. They do not need to be fed in the winter, unless the conditions become very extreme
    4. They have significantly fewer problems giving birth

    And plus, they are healthier for you! And taste better in my opinion, nothing beats a good ol' Bison Burger here in South Dakota.
    Those who expect to reap the blessings of liberty must undergo the fatigues of supporting it ~Thomas Paine

    Americans used to roar like lions for liberty; now we bleat like sheep for security ~Norman Vincent Peale

  24. #50
    If the government is involved, it cannot be for the good. Everything they do has a motive behind it.
    "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

  25. #51
    We should be worried about the growth hormones they give these animals because the meat can cause us to get cancer. Even milk that has hormones in it can cause cancer. I have seen articles on it not long ago. I am sure you guys probably read about it too. Scary stuff.

    http://www.preventcancer.com/consumers/general/milk.htm

    http://cincovidas.com/growth-hormone...hoose-organic/
    Last edited by rockerrockstar; 04-13-2012 at 12:05 AM.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by rockerrockstar View Post
    We should be worried about the growth hormones they give these animals because the meat can cause us to get cancer. Even milk that has hormones in it can cause cancer. I have seen articles on it not long ago. I am sure you guys probably read about it too. Scary stuff.

    http://www.preventcancer.com/consumers/general/milk.htm

    http://cincovidas.com/growth-hormone...hoose-organic/
    I agree. None of this garbage should be in our food. Instead of feeding them fake crap, why not give them what they eat naturally?

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by wrestlingwes_8 View Post
    We wouldn't be faced with this problem if we just raised the NATIVE ruminant of North America for meat production - BISON!!

    1. They do not get sick nearly as much as cattle do since they are adapted to this environment
    2. They utilize the available grass in a pasture more efficiently and effectively (they eat a wider range of grasses and also do not hang around water sources like cattle do)
    3. They do not need to be fed in the winter, unless the conditions become very extreme
    4. They have significantly fewer problems giving birth

    And plus, they are healthier for you! And taste better in my opinion, nothing beats a good ol' Bison Burger here in South Dakota.
    Bison meat tends to be much leaner, too. It's so much better than beef.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    It's official...this forum has been over run with liberals who only support Ron because of his position on foreign policy and the war on drugs. I grew up on a family farm, and I can tell you that the government doesn't have the right to tell us how to farm, period! Government sucks.
    Except for when it regulates abortion, marriage, a massive military costing hundreds of billions a year, police, a secret prison system where alleged terrorists are tortured and often killed, and the Intelligence State, a court system, intellectual property...
    Last edited by Feeding the Abscess; 04-13-2012 at 03:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    Except for when it regulates abortion, marriage, a massive military costing hundreds of billions a year, police, a secret prison system where alleged terrorists are tortured and often killed, and the Intelligence State, a court system, intellectual property...
    Even Ron Paul supports regulating some of those things, such as abortion and marriage. He believes that we should have a strong military, local police, intelligence agencies, a court system, and intellectual property. He doesn't support secret prisons, and neither do I. But, even though I'm not an anarchist, I'm still more libertarian than most of the people posting in this thread and the minimum wage thread. How exactly can these people arguing in favor of FDA regulations and increasing the minimum wage call themselves "libertarians" in any way?

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Even Ron Paul supports regulating some of those things, such as abortion and marriage. He believes that we should have a strong military, local police, intelligence agencies, a court system, and intellectual property. He doesn't support secret prisons, and neither do I. But, even though I'm not an anarchist, I'm still more libertarian than most of the people posting in this thread and the minimum wage thread. How exactly can these people arguing in favor of FDA regulations and increasing the minimum wage call themselves "libertarians" in any way?
    Just exhibiting the macho flash. You're right, though, the approval of the FDA regulations in this thread is appalling.

    And I'm happy to see that you've changed your position on Gitmo. For liberty!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    Just exhibiting the macho flash. You're right, though, the approval of the FDA regulations in this thread is appalling.

    And I'm happy to see that you've changed your position on Gitmo. For liberty!
    Gitmo isn't a secret prison. I thought you were talking about the secret prisons we have in Europe. But, my position isn't that Gitmo should stay open forever. My position is that all of the prisoners at Gitmo should be tried in military tribunals as soon as possible. Those who are found innocent should be released to their country of origin, and those who are found guilty should be executed. Once all of the prisoners have been tried, I would support closing down Gitmo.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Even Ron Paul supports regulating some of those things, such as abortion and marriage. He believes that we should have a strong military, local police, intelligence agencies, a court system, and intellectual property. He doesn't support secret prisons, and neither do I. But, even though I'm not an anarchist, I'm still more libertarian than most of the people posting in this thread and the minimum wage thread. How exactly can these people arguing in favor of FDA regulations and increasing the minimum wage call themselves "libertarians" in any way?
    There is a difference between someone who likes a couple of regulations than someone who wants to overregulate everything to death.

  34. #59
    Keep the government off our farms.

    Buy locally grown meat, and for you city dwellers........know your butcher!

    Wanting to buy "suits your notion of pure" beef from Wal-Mart for $1.99lb just isn't going to happen.

    There's an old saying in the trades that applies to food too; Good/Fast/Cheap.....pick two.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by wrestlingwes_8 View Post
    We wouldn't be faced with this problem if we just raised the NATIVE ruminant of North America for meat production - BISON!!

    1. They do not get sick nearly as much as cattle do since they are adapted to this environment
    2. They utilize the available grass in a pasture more efficiently and effectively (they eat a wider range of grasses and also do not hang around water sources like cattle do)
    3. They do not need to be fed in the winter, unless the conditions become very extreme
    4. They have significantly fewer problems giving birth

    And plus, they are healthier for you! And taste better in my opinion, nothing beats a good ol' Bison Burger here in South Dakota.

    +Rep I agree 100% with this post. Even though I only eat meat a few times a year, bison is always a favorite of mine to be on the menu.

    If I ever started eating more meat, it would be primarily bison and venison.. also fish.. not a big fan of foul tho chickens are easy to raise and I like eggs.
    Last edited by dannno; 04-13-2012 at 04:18 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

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