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Thread: Abortion babies and a fathers rights

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    None of that answers my questions.

    Ideally, it would be solved just as people said. I don't believe in having sex with anyone whose views I don't know for certain on this and various other issues. If you can't discuss pregnancy, STDs, and other expectations with someone, then I'm not sure why on earth you'd want to share something far more intimate than a conversation. It cheapens everyone involved. That's just my opinion, though, and my earlier question still stands: when the father wants the child, and the mother does not, what can be done to force her to carry to term?

    There have been a few responses, but it is also sad that rather than address that, you prefer to tsk tsk at me for asking. :>
    Don't have sex.

    Solved.
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    It seems like a lot of laws involved there, folks, and the word "force" used over and over.
    Libertarians only use the f-word when it's the government using force to take money from men. They're perfectly okay when it comes to the government overruling female sovereignty.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by No Free Beer View Post
    Don't have sex.

    Solved.
    What I am asking you is when it DOES happen, what do you think should be done to FORCE the woman to carry the child to term? Not "hey how do we stop this from happening?" but "what do we do when it inevitably does?"

    Try really hard to see the difference, since this is only the third time I've pointed it out.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by OrigSEOH View Post
    For the county prosecutor to charge her with murder of my child.
    You're charging her with murder for carrying your child to term?

    That... makes no sense?
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    You're charging her with murder for carrying your child to term?

    That... makes no sense?
    I'm pretty sure he meant if the woman killed her child she should be charged with murder. I completely agree with him.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by JebSanderson View Post
    I'm pretty sure he meant if the woman killed her child she should be charged with murder. I completely agree with him.
    Right, but that would be like me responding to your post with a mention of scalloped potatoes.

    It has nothing to do with what I was actually asking.

    I guess I should give up on it and be quite grateful that certain people in this thread are not involved in writing textbooks on emergency medical situations

    "Hmm okay it looks like this guy has stopped breathing and was burned over a lot of his body. Let's see. What did that textbook say? Ah yes it said 'don't stop breathing and don't get burned'."
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Domalais View Post
    Libertarians only use the f-word when it's the government using force to take money from men. They're perfectly okay when it comes to the government overruling female sovereignty.
    Nice!

    Instead of contributing to the discussion you suggest a man grow a uterus and that libertarians don't respect women....

    Are you for federal tax dollar "family planning" too?

    How about federal tax dollar "single mother" programs?

    Me,

    I'm for NO, zero, government involvement in family matters including funding abortions or birth control.

    I'm for removing all legislation that gives ANY parent a leg up in court......level playing field.

    I'm for EQUAL rights of all parties involved in a child/fetus.....Pa-Ma & Jr.


    I don't know how to achieve this Utopian equality but thinking about it makes more sense to me than ridiculing the idea.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by JebSanderson View Post
    I'm pretty sure he meant if the woman killed her child she should be charged with murder. I completely agree with him.
    So...if she miscarries, she'll have to go to court and prove she's not a murderer?
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
    Yet I can't afford $200 to go to a seminar--Matt Collins

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluge View Post
    So...if she miscarries, she'll have to go to court and prove she's not a murderer?
    No, that would be "guilty until proven innocent". If there is suspicion to believe she murdered her child then it would be up to the prosecutor to prove it.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Domalais View Post
    Libertarians only use the f-word when it's the government using force to take money from men. They're perfectly okay when it comes to the government overruling female sovereignty.
    Sovereignty over what? Killing her child?

    You have sovereignty over a guy's dick going into your hoohah. If you consent to that, you accept all the responsibilities that go along with it.
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    Sovereignty over what? Killing her child?

    You have sovereignty over a guy's dick going into your hoohah. If you consent to that, you accept all the responsibilities that go along with it.
    Don't you get it, we're waging a war against women because we don't condone them killing their children! It's their right!

  15. #42
    I'm so sick of this abortion talk.

    Murder is murder.

    End of story.
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by JebSanderson View Post
    Don't you get it, we're waging a war against women because we don't condone them killing their children! It's their right!
    Who's waging war on women?

    I'm trying my best to argue that a father should have equal say.

    My argument holds true whether or not abortion is legal.

    Without a father there would be no fetus, so why can't the father have an equal say?

    Instead of derailing the discussion to abortion or who's body has a womb......What about a fathers legal right to speak for his progeny?

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Who's waging war on women?

    I'm trying my best to argue that a father should have equal say.

    My argument holds true whether or not abortion is legal.

    Without a father there would be no fetus, so why can't the father have an equal say?

    Instead of derailing the discussion to abortion or who's body has a womb......What about a fathers legal right to speak for his progeny?
    I think he was being sarcastic.
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by No Free Beer View Post
    I think he was being sarcastic.
    Ya, I believe that was a recent Obama claim that Republicans are "waging a war on women."
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  19. #46
    Whoops..........sorry.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Ya, I believe that was a recent Obama claim that Republicans are "waging a war on women."
    Typical politician.

    I am so sick of the pettiness
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Who's waging war on women?

    I'm trying my best to argue that a father should have equal say.

    My argument holds true whether or not abortion is legal.

    Without a father there would be no fetus, so why can't the father have an equal say?

    Instead of derailing the discussion to abortion or who's body has a womb......What about a fathers legal right to speak for his progeny?
    I do think that person was being sarcastic, but as for me... I do think men should have a right to input, to be free from being forced to pay for something they do not want, to have equal consideration (gender-blind) with regards to custody. It just comes back to the pesky problem I keep mentioning. Just like Kluge, the only solution I can think of is for the guy to pay for the pregnancy and somehow compensate the woman for the risk she's undertaking. That might be incentive for her to go through with it. It's an inelegant solution, though. I had wanted to hear if someone had anything else in mind. What I got is "don't have sex."
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Whoops..........sorry.
    Yes, I was being sarcastic. That other poster keeps talking about so called "women's sovereignty" but refuses to acknowledge that the child also has the exact same rights, included the right to LIFE.

    Personally I think there is only one legal solution to the abortion debate that is consistent with liberterian principles and that is the pro-life position. I think that the government has the responsibility to protect the life of all under its jurisdiction and that includes the unborn. I would charge the "doctor" with premeditated murder and the mother with manslaughter at the least and perhaps even the father for accessory to murder if he pressured the woman to have an abortion.

    The legal system currently is a disgrace. The man has no say over whether he will be stuck with the responsibilities of a child for 18+ years and the woman has the "right" to kill that child. I think both those things are horrible. I think neither should able to decide whether the child dies, they should take responsibility for their actions.

    We all know what the possible outcome of sex is, we know that even with contraception there is still that risk. If you aren't willing to accept that risk, don't have sex. If you do have sex, take precautions and know that even "safe sex" isn't 100% "safe". Just like we take precautions and understand the risk of STD's we have to know and understand the risk of pregnancy and accept the outcome like mature, responsible adults.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluge View Post
    1. Kidnap her and keep her locked away and restrained for about 8 months.
    2. Bribe her--pay her lots of money and if she's poor enough, she may go along with it.
    3. Try to get the state to force her to have your child by law.
    I agree with the OP's proposition...

    The father should have a say.


    But I don't agree with your "three options".

    Why not civil / criminal penalties after the fact? This isn't a statutuory offense we're talking about...

    its fetus in a bucket in the corner of the room; MURDER.

    Why not a requirement for abortion doctors to have both parents signatures or a signed affidavit from the mother stating she is has made an attempt to, but is unable to contact the father (or was raped).

    I agree with the premise of abortion, but only to week 10-12 (fetus/embryo transition, organ development, brain activity) not until week 28 as under Roe v Wade (viability).

    88% of abortions currently occur before week 12. In my opinion anything after that is murder, and any abortion without the fathers permission is murder.

    How dare you kill my unborn child?

    My anti-feminist-abortion-rights position:

    It ceases to be YOUR UTEROUS when there is a fetus in it.... it's the fetus' uterous.

    Fetuses deserve LIFE, LIBERTY, and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS and a father's embryo deserves state protection unless he ALSO concedes to its destruction.

    presence
    Last edited by presence; 04-15-2012 at 07:30 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

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  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I agree with the OP's proposition...

    The father should have a say.


    But I don't agree with your "three options".

    Why not civil / criminal penalties after the fact? This isn't a statutuory offense we're talking about...

    its fetus in a bucket in the corner of the room; MURDER.

    Why not a requirement for abortion doctors to have both parents signatures or a signed affidavit from the mother stating she is has made an attempt to, but is unable to contact the father (or was raped).

    I agree with the premise of abortion, but only to week 10-12 (fetus/embryo transition, organ development, brain activity) not until week 28 as under Roe v Wade (viability).

    88% of abortions currently occur before week 12. In my opinion anything after that is murder, and any abortion without the fathers permission is murder.

    How dare you kill my unborn child?

    My anti-feminist-abortion-rights position:

    It ceases to be YOUR UTEROUS when there is a fetus in it.... it's the fetus' uterous.

    Fetuses deserve LIFE, LIBERTY, and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS and a father's embryo deserves state protection unless he ALSO concedes to its destruction.

    presence
    Penalties after the fact would be an option, for sure, but this is a different situation as you say. This is not akin to "someone wrecked my car; I want to be compensated." This is something that cannot be replaced. In the scenario we are discussing, the father has property (for lack of a better term) inside of the mother. The father cannot actually keep that property alive and safe without the mother. The mother is, again in this scenario, keeping the property hostage. You cannot just double-dog-dare her to kill the baby and face penalties. There are a number of things that make a woman miscarry, and it would be rather difficult to prove beyond all doubt that she didn't naturally miscarry. There are also ways she could "get even" by poisoning the child little by little, but that people are not putting forth as things which should be illegal.

    So the three options are the ones that you can attempt in order to keep the woman from killing the fetus, but all of them involve some degree of inelegance.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  26. #52
    There's lot's of issues that interact when we get to discussing "babies"....

    Determining when an embryo turns to a fetus is a good starting point...And if I understood Dr. Paul correctly he considers using hormones to flush an embryo birth control? I could be wrong but that's what I remember...

    Anyway...I drew that line in the sand so as to give a starting point for further discussion.


    Casual sex (sex for pleasure) is going to happen, so accepting that moving forward is logical.

    Let's move to the woman, after-all she's the first to suspect pregnancy, modern medicine offers her the ability to assure she's not pregnant long before the embryo transitions to a fetus leaving her the option of retroactive birth control.

    Once an embryo has become a fetus the only way I'm aware of to end the pregnancy voluntarily is a scrape-n-suck traditional abortion.

    At the point when a traditional abortion is required to end a pregnancy is when I believe a fathers rights should kick in. Not only the fathers right to equally represent the fetus but the right of the fetus itself to be recognized if not as an individual than as a "potential life" that both parents are responsible for.

    I'm intentionally avoiding the legality of abortion because right now it's still legal.......So if the mother hasn't ended her pregnancy before the embryo reaches the "fetus" stage I purpose that she has consented by default that the father has equal legal standing regarding the life of the fetus.

    At any point during the 8 weeks after sex the potential mother and father have the opportunity to discuss moral/ethical/financial responsibility without granting the embryo status of "potential life"......This is when decisions by the woman need to be made, her "sovereignty" over her body would remain only until the fetus was established.

    We can go back-n-forth all day debating morals and ethics at this point but law is about money and punishment...

    If both parents agree on how they're going to proceed relevant to the fetus then some type of contract needs to be entered into....Marriage is one such contract, so would be mutual consent for an abortion.

    If the parents disagree once the fetus is established a contract should again be entered into only in this contract the "potential life" of the fetus must be represented and acknowledged.

    There are only two ways there can be disagreement at this point;
    1) Mother wants baby/Father doesn't
    2) Father wants baby/Mother doesn't

    To me it's common sense that the parent who wants the child should agree to be financially responsible for the child and if the other parent forcibly terminates the pregnancy punishment should ensue.


    ........I'd really like to hear some type of logical rebuttal against these suggestions either way........

  27. #53
    There are only two ways there can be disagreement at this point;
    1) Mother wants baby/Father doesn't
    2) Father wants baby/Mother doesn't

    To me it's common sense that the parent who wants the child should agree to be financially responsible for the child and if the other parent forcibly terminates the pregnancy punishment should ensue.
    Right, but I am playing devil's advocate here.

    In option 1, the father does not suffer any additional physical harm, and he can terminate his rights. We are also arguing in this thread that he should not be automatically forced to be financially responsible for the child. I can think of some scenarios where the mother might sue for some sort of compensation, but those are going to be the exception and can be handled in civil courts as a contract matter.

    In option 2, however, the mother does suffer additional physical harm. She terminates her rights after birth. She should not be automatically forced to be financially responsible for the child, either. How do you force someone to continue a pregnancy, alter their body, put their life in danger, disrupt their life and work habits, etc., for a child they do not even want? How do you force them to be healthy? How do you safeguard a child who is held hostage for months and months by someone who does not really want them to live? It can all be handled privately, but I keep seeing courts and force batted around. The issue of physical changes and risks does not seem to be addressed, and like it or not it is gender-dependent. The only real way around it is putting a price on pregnancy and labor and delivery, and I'm not sure that does anyone any favors, either.

    Option 2 relies entirely on using someone's body against their own consent, with significant risk. Option 1 relies entirely on using someone's own body with their own consent, with the risk only assumed by the person who wants the baby. That's why it's relevant who is carrying the baby.

    This could go even further, by the way. Babies benefit greatly from breast milk from a healthy mother. Is there a right, then, to extract milk from the mother before the father takes custody? Must she be available for that? Don't be too quick to dismiss this.

    Ideally it should be handled by knowing your partner up front, but after the fact, I don't think we benefit from bringing the law into it. All the questions above have to be answered by the parties involved, not by government. It used to be that a family might gather together to raise a little "accident," or perhaps the gal in question was shunned a bit. I think we are approaching the time when the guy is also frowned upon for his Johnny Appleseed ways. That should be enough, without the overpowered hand of the State getting involved in something so personal and intimate.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  28. #54
    Melissa,

    Skipping right to the "one parent wants the kid-other doesn't" neglects the whole premise I set forth concerning the 8 weeks when she had the sole option of retroactive birth control...

    If the pregnancy is permitted to reach 8 weeks by the woman then and only then could the fathers rights be asserted.

    Even then if the woman chose to have a mid-late term abortion the fetus and the father would both have grounds to sue for loss of the "potential life".

    Remember the woman has two months to decide all by herself if she wants the pregnancy to escalate to the point of possessing a fetus.

    So in my (decidedly male opinion) if she "changes her mind" at 12-24 weeks and the father objects, not only should she have to deal with stretch marks and saggy boobs, she should be held liable for any action she takes to harm the fetus and also liable to the father for depriving him of the baby.

    In all fairness if the father terminates a pregnancy by force without the mothers consent it is murder....

  29. #55
    If you think it would just be about stretch marks and saggy boobs, this conversation's kind of pointless. It also ignores people who do not find out they are pregnant right away which is, ironically enough, the same group that would be the most likely to have complications from carrying a baby to term.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    Ideally it should be handled by knowing your partner up front, but after the fact, I don't think we benefit from bringing the law into it. All the questions above have to be answered by the parties involved, not by government. It used to be that a family might gather together to raise a little "accident," or perhaps the gal in question was shunned a bit. I think we are approaching the time when the guy is also frowned upon for his Johnny Appleseed ways. That should be enough, without the overpowered hand of the State getting involved in something so personal and intimate.

    I agree with this whole paragraph! (sorry for spouting off without acknowledging it)

    Getting the law out of it would help/hurt both men and women with no thought for the baby.

    Eliminating current law would keep fathers from having to pay support to a mother they don't agree with.....it would also keep women from having the option of a surgical abortion...

    What we have legally doesn't seem to be working for anyone but the lawyers.....keeping with the spirit of "no new legislation" is there a way to protect Pa-Ma and Jr's. well-being by repealing some laws?



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I agree with the OP's proposition...

    The father should have a say.


    But I don't agree with your "three options".

    Why not civil / criminal penalties after the fact? This isn't a statutuory offense we're talking about...

    its fetus in a bucket in the corner of the room; MURDER.

    Why not a requirement for abortion doctors to have both parents signatures or a signed affidavit from the mother stating she is has made an attempt to, but is unable to contact the father (or was raped).

    I agree with the premise of abortion, but only to week 10-12 (fetus/embryo transition, organ development, brain activity) not until week 28 as under Roe v Wade (viability).

    88% of abortions currently occur before week 12. In my opinion anything after that is murder, and any abortion without the fathers permission is murder.

    How dare you kill my unborn child?

    My anti-feminist-abortion-rights position:

    It ceases to be YOUR UTEROUS when there is a fetus in it.... it's the fetus' uterous.

    Fetuses deserve LIFE, LIBERTY, and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS and a father's embryo deserves state protection unless he ALSO concedes to its destruction.

    presence
    Quite simple: It's not illegal and won't be at any foreseeable time in the future. I'm not debating the ethics of it, that's been done ad nauseum here. Yes it's wrong in almost all circumstances, but it's not illegal.

    So those are your options. Sounds like you'd take option #1.
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
    Yet I can't afford $200 to go to a seminar--Matt Collins

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    Easy. You don't have sex, you wear a condom, or you get fixed. Any will work.
    or...you find someone who loves you and you love them, and either 'get married or sign contracts, live happily ever after.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    If you think it would just be about stretch marks and saggy boobs, this conversation's kind of pointless. It also ignores people who do not find out they are pregnant right away which is, ironically enough, the same group that would be the most likely to have complications from carrying a baby to term.
    Yep. It was the most frightening experience I've ever gone through--and I'm not just talking about the delivery. I was scared $#@!less almost the entire time. And many of the physical changes are permanent.
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
    Yet I can't afford $200 to go to a seminar--Matt Collins

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    If you think it would just be about stretch marks and saggy boobs, this conversation's kind of pointless. It also ignores people who do not find out they are pregnant right away which is, ironically enough, the same group that would be the most likely to have complications from carrying a baby to term.
    In the legal realm a person has to deal with known entities, and these are two known physical markers of a pregnancy.....Of course there are potential issues with the fetus in-utero both to the mother and the fetus, then the psych issues, hormonal imbalances etc.

    All I'm doing is putting ideas out there that could possibly move us as a society somewhat closer to respecting everyones rights..

    We both know kids and parents are going to be going to court long past the time they kick dirt in on us.....It'd be kind of cool to come up with ideas the vast majority could agree were fair.

    Then again cyber ink is free..

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