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Thread: Abortion babies and a fathers rights

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kluge View Post
    Isn't it bizarre trying to force certain behaviors that aren't natural? But that's pretty much all that gov't does.

    By the way, I need a babysitter--you available?
    Pick me! Pick me!
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  3. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Pick me! Pick me!
    You win over Danke anyday!

    Of course, I don't think he'll be at all disappointed. Lucky for you, she's past her projectile spitup phase. That was far worse than poop diapers.
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
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  4. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    .....also liable to the father for depriving him of the baby.

    ...
    You can't prove damages here. Perhaps the trauma will indeed require intensive psychotherapy, but that's offset by the money he won't be spending raising a child.

    I am against abortion, but this position does more to hurt the pro-life movement than help it, because it enslaves the woman to the man, as well as the fetus. It brings up the slippery slope, too. What if the Mom drinks, smokes, doesn't wear seat belts, etc etc while pregnant?

    This suddenly gives a pregnant woman less rights than anybody else in the whole debate, and that's never going to be a winning argument.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  5. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kluge View Post
    You win over Danke anyday!

    Of course, I don't think he'll be at all disappointed. Lucky for you, she's past her projectile spitup phase. That was far worse than poop diapers.
    Meh - Been there, done that. A little spit up never hurt anybody. Might have been fun to see if she could make my teens puke. Yes, that is indeed the kind of Mom I am.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  6. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    You can't prove damages here. Perhaps the trauma will indeed require intensive psychotherapy, but that's offset by the money he won't be spending raising a child.

    I am against abortion, but this position does more to hurt the pro-life movement than help it, because it enslaves the woman to the man, as well as the fetus. It brings up the slippery slope, too. What if the Mom drinks, smokes, doesn't wear seat belts, etc etc while pregnant?

    This suddenly gives a pregnant woman less rights than anybody else in the whole debate, and that's never going to be a winning argument.
    Okay,

    What's logical?

    Is there a way to be fair to Pa-Ma and Jr.?

  7. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Meh - Been there, done that. A little spit up never hurt anybody. Might have been fun to see if she could make my teens puke. Yes, that is indeed the kind of Mom I am.
    Awesome.

    It was just the smell of it. Blargh. Oh, and just taking a shower, picking up the baby and getting it all down my arm and pantleg. She will stuff herself to the point of burping up a little bit here and there, but it's no big deal. Except that she wails when I stop her from eating to the point of bursting, which I pretty much have to ignore because I'm trying to get it across to her that she doesn't always get her way. What is awesome is that she'll eat pretty much whatever healthy concoction I put in front of her--even spicy stuff. I give her Greek yogurt with beans, carrots, a scoop of formula for vitamins and whatever spices I feel like she needs to try--and she's so excited over it that she's squealing.

    I have a feeling that that won't last. But I'll milk it while I can and hope for the best.

    ETA: Oh yeah, and spit-up can be dangerous--I've slipped on it numerous times on a hardwood floor when I didn't notice it was there. Slimy!
    Last edited by Kluge; 04-15-2012 at 01:55 PM.
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
    Yet I can't afford $200 to go to a seminar--Matt Collins

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I am against abortion, but this position does more to hurt the pro-life movement than help it, because it enslaves the woman to the man, as well as the fetus. It brings up the slippery slope, too. What if the Mom drinks, smokes, doesn't wear seat belts, etc etc while pregnant?

    This suddenly gives a pregnant woman less rights than anybody else in the whole debate, and that's never going to be a winning argument.

    This. So the law changes to force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term because the father wants the end result, a child or it could be multiples. How much control does the law give to the father over the mother's body? Is the father permitted to demand that she not smoke, drink, eat unhealthy food, or even have sex (at the risk of getting an STD).

    I agree with others in the thread who have said it's not fair that men are responsible for child support for a pregnancy they don't want but when the woman doesn't want it she can choose to terminate the pregnancy.

    Also to add to the discussion, how would the father even know the mother is pregnant unless she tells him? She can have an abortion without anyone's knowledge.



  9. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by playboymommy View Post

    This. So the law changes to force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term because the father wants the end result, a child or it could be multiples. How much control does the law give to the father over the mother's body? Is the father permitted to demand that she not smoke, drink, eat unhealthy food, or even have sex (at the risk of getting an STD).

    I agree with others in the thread who have said it's not fair that men are responsible for child support for a pregnancy they don't want but when the woman doesn't want it she can choose to terminate the pregnancy.

    Also to add to the discussion, how would the father even know the mother is pregnant unless she tells him? She can have an abortion without anyone's knowledge.



    So what would be fair?

    Should the fetus be taken into account?

    Some fathers really want their offspring, should their wishes be neglected because their willing (at the time) partner decides she doesn't want the hassle?

    Of course a woman can just ignore the babies father and do as she chooses, if she aborts it's a pretty safe bet he'll never know......When this BS ends up in court is either when the woman wants money or the child comes looking for the father....

    Then what?

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    So what would be fair?

    Should the fetus be taken into account?

    Some fathers really want their offspring, should their wishes be neglected because their willing (at the time) partner decides she doesn't want the hassle?

    Of course a woman can just ignore the babies father and do as she chooses, if she aborts it's a pretty safe bet he'll never know......When this BS ends up in court is either when the woman wants money or the child comes looking for the father....

    Then what?
    Will it ever be fair? In any scenario somebody is losing in some way, a pregnancy is terminated, a woman is forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, a father is forced to pay child support for an unwanted child or loses his prospective child because of an abortion.

    No solution will benefit all members of the party except of course the one where the mother and father and baby live happily ever after.

  11. #70

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    I know what is fair. Remove the "Child Support" payments issue. If a father basically has no say in if a woman should or shouldn’t keep the baby. Then a man should not be forced to make payments depending on if the woman decides to keep the baby.
    Last edited by wannaberocker; 04-17-2012 at 11:18 AM.
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  12. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by wannaberocker View Post
    I know what is fair. Remove the "Child Support" payments issue. If a father basically has no say in if a woman should or shouldn’t keep the baby. Then a man should not be forced to make payments depending on if the woman decides to keep the baby.
    Child support in the form of welfare, housing assistance and food stamps need to go too.

    Screeching halt!

  13. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Child support in the form of welfare, housing assistance and food stamps need to go too.

    Screeching halt!
    True.
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  14. #73

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    With regards to Child Support. You all should read the 14th amendment of the Constitution. Secondly, it's a crime (extortion is a crime unless of course the state does it) to forcibly take from someone else. Most states will destroy your credit and throw your ass in jail if you don't pay even as little as $2,500 that's 30 days past due. They will take away your right to travel by taking away your pass port. They are rude and tyrannical. You haven't seen anything unless you are in the system It's horrible and guess what your friend the Federal Reserve is in on the mix as well (shocker right?). CS money goes through the Federal Reserve! Wow really? Go read Title IV D Federal Funding. It was part of the Social Security Act of 1975.

    It's a crime to send good people with no history to jail for non-payment. It's a crime to extort money from good people and it's unconstitutional. Especially for the non-custodial parent who is a huge part of their kids life and didn't ask to be taken out of their child's life. 84% of the time the father gets screwed and has to pay CS and doesn't get the time with the kids. Why? It's called the Mother bisas. Studies show (yes I have the studies) that dad's are actually a better parent to kids than the mothers. Does anyone ever hear this? Nope.

    Another Google search.. Thomas Ball. He was getting so screwed over by the family court system he went to the court house dowsed himself with gas and set himself on fire in protest. Did you hear anything about it? Nope.

    Suicide rates sky rocket for fathers who have no choice but to pay up no matter what. Again it's a crime and it's about time people start fighting back.
    Last edited by rp4prez; 05-07-2012 at 09:09 PM.

  15. #74

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    If you want kids that badly hire an incubator-lady-thing (I am really tired)
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  16. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    If you want kids that badly hire an incubator-lady-thing (I am really tired)
    I can't think of the word either...dammit!
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
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  17. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    If you want kids that badly hire an incubator-lady-thing (I am really tired)
    Surrogate........

    But that fails to address my original post concerning fathers rights in cases of abortion.

    To the best of my knowledge medical science can't transplant a fetus yet.

  18. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I agree with the OP's proposition...

    The father should have a say.


    But I don't agree with your "three options".

    Why not civil / criminal penalties after the fact? This isn't a statutuory offense we're talking about...

    its fetus in a bucket in the corner of the room; MURDER.

    Why not a requirement for abortion doctors to have both parents signatures or a signed affidavit from the mother stating she is has made an attempt to, but is unable to contact the father (or was raped).

    I agree with the premise of abortion, but only to week 10-12 (fetus/embryo transition, organ development, brain activity) not until week 28 as under Roe v Wade (viability).

    88% of abortions currently occur before week 12. In my opinion anything after that is murder, and any abortion without the fathers permission is murder.

    How dare you kill my unborn child?

    My anti-feminist-abortion-rights position:

    It ceases to be YOUR UTEROUS when there is a fetus in it.... it's the fetus' uterous.

    Fetuses deserve LIFE, LIBERTY, and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS and a father's embryo deserves state protection unless he ALSO concedes to its destruction.

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  19. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Let's do a hypothetical situation (one I've seen happen)....

    Girlfriend/wife pulls up pregnant, couple is young and have agreed on a family but reality kicks in a couple months into the pregnancy and the relationship fails (no fault) .........Mother unilaterally and vindictively terminates the pregnancy.

    If you were the father would you want to keep your child? Would you like your voice to be heard when arguing for the babies life?

    Or would you really be cool with as you say, "Letting God sort it out"?
    What kind of heartless person vindictively aborts a child as some act of revenge?

  20. #79
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    The man does have rights. He has the right to choose not to sleep with a dumb whore who isnt on the same moral page as he is.

    Once a guy gets intimate with another woman you open a can that is full of worms and bad possible outcomes. Sure, 19/20 times you might have an ok sex then move on - but you never know.

    Here's my advise to men, start acting like real men and make the decision to abstain from intimate physical relationships until you get that ring on her finger, and the commitment.

    Or you can stick your junk into anything that moves, because.... its your right to.... right?

  21. #80

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    The "ring on her finger" doesn't grant you any legal say as to whether or not she chooses to abort the child you conceived together.

    All you gain in the legal arena as a man is the "right" to be listed on the birth certificate.

    "The ring" also obligates your name to be listed on the birth certificate if your wife delivers another mans child while you are married.

    There are lots of social and legal issues intertwined when we discuss fathers rights relevant to the unborn and just because an issue is right or moral socially doesn't mean it has a legal footing.



    Quote Originally Posted by asurfaholic View Post
    The man does have rights. He has the right to choose not to sleep with a dumb whore who isnt on the same moral page as he is.

    Once a guy gets intimate with another woman you open a can that is full of worms and bad possible outcomes. Sure, 19/20 times you might have an ok sex then move on - but you never know.

    Here's my advise to men, start acting like real men and make the decision to abstain from intimate physical relationships until you get that ring on her finger, and the commitment.

    Or you can stick your junk into anything that moves, because.... its your right to.... right?

  22. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    The "ring on her finger" doesn't grant you any legal say as to whether or not she chooses to abort the child you conceived together.

    All you gain in the legal arena as a man is the "right" to be listed on the birth certificate.

    "The ring" also obligates your name to be listed on the birth certificate if your wife delivers another mans child while you are married.

    There are lots of social and legal issues intertwined when we discuss fathers rights relevant to the unborn and just because an issue is right or moral socially doesn't mean it has a legal footing.
    Maybe so

    But by fully vetting and getting to know your partner, you reduce the risk of someone aborting your baby to almost nothing. If you honestly seek out someone with moral character, and plan properly for the huge decision that baby-making is, then united as one, you go together and have a baby.

    If you can't accept the responsibility of moral living and wise life choices, you run the risk of having bad stuff happen to you. I understand crap happens, but ultimately, YOU choose your outcomes by choosing what moral standard you live your life. And YOU control who you perform baby-making techniques on.

  23. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by asurfaholic View Post
    Maybe so

    But by fully vetting and getting to know your partner, you reduce the risk of someone aborting your baby to almost nothing. If you honestly seek out someone with moral character, and plan properly for the huge decision that baby-making is, then united as one, you go together and have a baby.

    If you can't accept the responsibility of moral living and wise life choices, you run the risk of having bad stuff happen to you. I understand crap happens, but ultimately, YOU choose your outcomes by choosing what moral standard you live your life. And YOU control who you perform baby-making techniques on.
    You're absolutely correct and if everyone behaved as you suggest there would be less trouble in the world.

    Unfortunately everyone doesn't and lots of people end up in court fighting for their childs or their own rights.

    So can you think of a way to balance the scales legally for fathers and fetuses without passing new laws or should their "rights" continue to be superseded by the mothers?

  24. #83

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    I have not read the other 9 pages of posts because I don't have time But I have a personal story that shows how this type of issue affected one person. My ex husband was involved with a german woman for a few years before he and I met. He was young, only 17 to 20 years old during that time period, but the woman he was with (almost 10 years his senior) became pregnant twice during their time together. The first time, she was 8.5 months pregnant when he was sent off on a 3 week training course (military). When he returned, he rushed to her home to see if she had their baby yet and she opened the door with no baby tummy. she told him that the baby was still born. He believed her. It wasn't until he met me that he started to wonder what had really happened. There was no funeral, no death certificate, etc... why not? She was from a catholic family and they had no service for a full term infant? I highly doubt that.... I think she gave the child up for adoption, as she did do with a previous child she bore with a different father. That child was adopted by her distant cousin and she still saw the child (9 yrs old at that time).... he had no say in any of this and was very upset when he realized that he had been duped.

    But it happened again when they had been together longer - she became pregnant and even though he was young, he was excited at the prospect of having another chance to be a father again (remember, he thought his first child was still born in the 9th month).... but she had an abortion. She just flippantly told him one evening that she had arranged for an abortion. He was devastated and they split up. He could not believe that his flesh and blood was once, perhaps twice, taken away from him with no input from him. We spoke at length about this several times during our marriage and it still affects him to this day, more than 20 years later. I told him that perhaps having a woman carry your child that obviously does not want to be a mother would be a bad idea anyway - perhaps she would not look after herself and the growing fetus properly and end up causing problems for the child, who knows. He understood that but still felt at a major loss over how this could happen.

    Because of all this, he did not want to have another child until he was positive everyone was ready and we were married for 5 years before we had our son. He was with his next girlfriend for almost 10 years before he finally had a child with her almost 2 years ago. I will always wonder if there is a big brother or sister out there for our boys - a child adopted in Germany. Or if they were both aborted instead of just one... I have no idea. No one does, and no one can find out unless his ex tells what REALLY happened. It's very hard that in the end, only one of the parents has the final say in what happens. Unfortunately men cannot carry the child so they cannot control any of that part of things - but I do feel bad that a woman who does not want a child to raise herself will choose abortion over giving that child to the father. She could relinquish her parental rights at the moment of birth and never have to pay child support or have visitation - but some choose not to do that and deny the other parent the chance to raise the child by terminating without needing consent. It's a tough road but one I don't know how we could navigate.

    As I said, I dont think that a woman should be forced because any number of things could happen. I am technically pro-choice, I just deep down wish that abortion didnt end up on the table as a choice because I believe that life begins at conception, but I am not going to tell someone else what to do with their lives. It is a personal issue and I do not think the govt should get involved in legislation at all - but even on a personal level men would have to be very careful if they wanted a woman to carry their child and she did not. that is treading on dangerous waters and something could go wrong. She could even try doing something about it herself and that is dangerous too. It's a very sad tough topic but I think it is important to keep the government out of it first and foremost. So it would have to be up to each mother and father to discuss what would happen. A decision has to be made and only one will come out on top, most often the woman I am sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    You're absolutely correct and if everyone behaved as you suggest there would be less trouble in the world.

    Unfortunately everyone doesn't and lots of people end up in court fighting for their childs or their own rights.

    So can you think of a way to balance the scales legally for fathers and fetuses without passing new laws or should their "rights" continue to be superseded by the mothers?
    I honestly can't think of a way... case law I think would help. Someone would have to successfully sue the partner for aborting against his will. Then the precedent would be set. Getting a law to require the father's signature as well as the mothers would be difficult, and easy to circumvent (bring a friend instead of daddy). And what about rape cases.

    There really is no easy answer. My point is this is the crap that happens in an immoral nation. Its a great topic of discussion, because it explores the very important question of a fathers role in deciding to abort or not.

  26. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by asurfaholic View Post
    The man does have rights. He has the right to choose not to sleep with a dumb whore who isnt on the same moral page as he is.

    Once a guy gets intimate with another woman you open a can that is full of worms and bad possible outcomes. Sure, 19/20 times you might have an ok sex then move on - but you never know.

    Here's my advise to men, start acting like real men and make the decision to abstain from intimate physical relationships until you get that ring on her finger, and the commitment.

    Or you can stick your junk into anything that moves, because.... its your right to.... right?
    Wow how ignorant and naive you are. I feel sorry for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rp4prez View Post
    Wow how ignorant and naive you are. I feel sorry for you.
    Go ahead and feel sorry for me. Im happily married and have a beautiful 8 month girl. And I don't have to worry for a second about anyone aborting the next, or any other headache that stems from being morally bankrupt.

    Life is tough enough without looking for trouble.

    Feel sorry all you want my friend.

  28. #87

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    This debate could go on forever, but at the end of the day it boils down to one thing. No matter how you look at it, abortion is murder. If you want to legally murder, that's on your conscious. Don't pretend you believe in any form of God (or you wouldn't be playing the role of it) and don't act as if you're a responsible person.

    It's sad how often women get abortions, yet if they're spouse is rich... hmm.. suddenly having a child is such a precious thing. After all, they'll get you more money when you peace out with 1/2 the guy's assets. Men get screwed over so much in America; feminism has completely taken over. I hate feminists with a passion because they're huge hypocrites. They want equal rights with both men and women, yet somehow fail to realize they have a ton more rights than men already.. still pushing to greatly pass our rights which means they are nowhere equal anymore. All the collectivism and rights of specific groups has become a major headache. So much for equality for all
    Last edited by ds21089; 05-09-2012 at 10:21 AM.
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  29. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by asurfaholic View Post
    Go ahead and feel sorry for me. Im happily married and have a beautiful 8 month girl.
    I sincerely hope that you and your family continue in this vein.

    There are lots of folks who are not so fortunate.

  30. #89

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    I'm pro-life, yes, the man should have a say. I like the below as a way to frame the argument.

    Size: True, embryos are smaller than newborns and adults, but why is that relevant? Do we really want to say that large people are more valuable than small ones? Men are generally larger than women, but that doesn’t mean they deserve more rights. Size doesn’t equal value.

    Level of development: True, embryos and fetuses are less developed than you and I. But again, why is this relevant? Four year-old girls are less developed than 14 year-old ones. Should older children have more rights than their younger siblings? Some people say that the immediate capacity for self-awareness and a desire to go on living makes one valuable. But if that is true, newborns do not qualify as valuable human beings. Infants do not acquire distinct self-awareness and memory until several months after birth. (Best case scenario, infants acquire limited self-awareness three months after birth, when the synapse connections increase from 56 trillion to 1,000 trillion.) As abortion advocate and philosopher Dean Stretton writes, “Any plausible pro-choice theory will have to deny newborns a full right to life. That's counterintuitive.”

    Environment: Where you are has no bearing on who you are. Does your value change when you cross the street or roll over in bed? If not, how can a journey of eight inches down the birth-canal suddenly change the essential nature of the unborn from non-human to human? If the unborn are not already valuable human beings, merely changing their location can’t make them so.

    Degree of Dependency: If viability bestows human value, then all those who depend on insulin or kidney medication are not valuable and we may kill them. Conjoined twins who share blood type and bodily systems also have no right to life.

    In short, although humans differ immensely with respect to talents, accomplishments, and degrees of development, they are nonetheless equal (and valuable) because they all have the same human nature.
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  31. #90

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    The people who claim a woman should have a right to have an abortion without the fathers consent should also agree that men should not have to be forced by law to pay child support for a child they did not want.

    I've used that arguement a few times. Nearly makes a Libs head explode.
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