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Thread: Good day at the range.

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    Default Good day at the range.

    Today we went to the range with all the goodies - full auto, suppressed... yeah, it was a hoot.

    Shot both .22 and 9mm suppressed. The 9 was as quiet as the .22, which surprised me. the 300 Whisper was substantially less hard on the ears than was a .22 lr from a longer barrel. Very quiet and no push worth mentioning. 220 gr @ 1050 at the snoot.

    The short barreled (11") M-16 with rate reducer was fun, but the M60 was the height of my day - very controllable considering what is going on there.

    I also shot an AK full auto for the first time. They are fun, but horrible weapons in some ways. The brake is oriented such that the muzzle walks to the left during sustained bursts. I would not want to have to bet my life on one. We also shot a .45 vtech... damned thing smoked like the dickens. Weird.

    And that, kiddies, was my day at the range. Lots of bang. Lots of smiles.
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    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

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    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.



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  3. #2

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    Sounds like fun, sure beats all hell out of bottle rockets and firecrackers!
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    Are you sure about those Whisper numbers ?
    That seems pretty wimpy.
    ETA: Nevermind ... Subsonic load, my bad.

    Glad you had a good day ... Nothing beats a happy switch !!!
    Last edited by azxd; 04-08-2012 at 08:56 AM.
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    Needs a bigger boat Anti Federalist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Today we went to the range with all the goodies - full auto, suppressed... yeah, it was a hoot.

    Shot both .22 and 9mm suppressed. The 9 was as quiet as the .22, which surprised me. the 300 Whisper was substantially less hard on the ears than was a .22 lr from a longer barrel. Very quiet and no push worth mentioning. 220 gr @ 1050 at the snoot.

    The short barreled (11") M-16 with rate reducer was fun, but the M60 was the height of my day - very controllable considering what is going on there.

    I also shot an AK full auto for the first time. They are fun, but horrible weapons in some ways. The brake is oriented such that the muzzle walks to the left during sustained bursts. I would not want to have to bet my life on one. We also shot a .45 vtech... damned thing smoked like the dickens. Weird.

    And that, kiddies, was my day at the range. Lots of bang. Lots of smiles.
    vtech?

    Are you talking about the .45 H and K SOCOM?

    If so, I shot one those, suppressed, and found it doing the same thing, smoky and dirty as all hell. My face and hands were covered in soot after 100 rounds or so.

    Go fast fun FTW.

  6. #5

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    Good stuff, osan. I'm always glad to see freedom-lovers having good weapons, especially the suppressed stuff and the M60. (Is that yours? If so, you can color me green with envy.)

    I've heard that full-auto AKs are so difficult to control as to essentially be pointless. Your experience seems to back this up. But what did you think of the shortie M16 with the rate reducer? At what range would you consider that to be useful? I know the regular M16 can be tough to keep on paper except at very short ranges. (My favorite AR is a .50 Beowulf, and I wouldn't dare try that with a fun switch!)
    "Man lives freely only by his readiness to die." -- Mohandas K. Gandhi

    "Generally speaking, the way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death." -- Miyamoto Musashi

  7. #6

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    I want me a piston AR in 300 Blackout... mmmmmmmmmmm, tasty.

  8. #7

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    Woohoo! That sounds like a nice day at the range. One of these days I'm going to get the paperwork done and treat myself to a supressor.

    I had fun at the range on Saturday myself. Hung a bunch of paper plates with faces drawn on them on a metal mesh in the shotgun bay and emptied my pump shotgun at them at couple of times.
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  9. #8

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    I really never though the M16A1 was that wild on auto, and keeping the bursts decent length could really "drill" an area target.

    I also liked the M60, but I took care to put it back together correctly, and that makes a big difference (there are two ways to put it back together wrong, one of which will lead to a bad experience).

    Only like the M4 style for portability as a PDW (Personal Defense Weapon), not for most forms of combat.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

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  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sullivan* View Post
    I want me a piston AR in 300 Blackout... mmmmmmmmmmm, tasty.
    Be careful of piston ARs. They've been known to have problems with receiver wear, I believe due to the bolt carrier tilting as the piston forces it backward from the gas pressure. It's possible that the problem has been fixed, at least by the better manufacturers, but you should at least be aware of it and maybe investigate further.

    Personally, I think it's better to just stick with a DI gas system in the AR. It's actually a myth that it significantly affects reliability in a properly-made weapon. What's more important if you're getting an AR is to get a mid-length or rifle-length gas system as opposed to a carbine-length one. Longer gas systems have lower chamber pressures during extraction, so your bolt and its parts don't wear as quickly.
    "Man lives freely only by his readiness to die." -- Mohandas K. Gandhi

    "Generally speaking, the way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death." -- Miyamoto Musashi

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuerrillaXXI View Post
    Good stuff, osan. I'm always glad to see freedom-lovers having good weapons, especially the suppressed stuff and the M60. (Is that yours? If so, you can color me green with envy.)
    It's my friend's. Bought it NIB a bunch of years ago before they went through the roof, $-wise.

    I've heard that full-auto AKs are so difficult to control as to essentially be pointless.
    I would call that a fair assessment of the weapon. I have also seen high-speed video of them operating FA. As opposed to an AR, which is rock solid, the AK flexes as if it was made of rubber. Give that, it is amazing that you can hit anything other than by dumb luck. But being FA, it is still fun. The M16, however, is far and away the superior weapon in every respect except perhaps reliability under conditions of extreme filth.

    Your experience seems to back this up.
    Sho'nuff.

    But what did you think of the shortie M16 with the rate reducer?
    Given the full power 5.56 rounds it was very controllable, though if the burst went much past 7 rounds the muzzle began wandering upward. But with plenty of practice one could learn to control it. With lower power rounds it should be very manageable. The 11 inch barrel made it hella loud. Without ears I would expect serious problems for one's hearing. I would also note that the shock wave from the muzzle was on the harsh side. The M60 had a standard barrel, but I have been told that the short barreled guns are painfully thunderous in report and the muzzle blast can give some folks nose bleeds

    At what range would you consider that to be useful?
    For directed fire I would say perhaps 75-100 yards tops, if that. They are designed for close quarters work. I would, however, pity to poor slob opening up with one of those in a confined space. Short barrels are always very loud. I have an old .22 Stevens Model 34. No hearing protection needed. The same rounds out of my bull barrel Ruger MkIII will make you want to cry, they are so loud.

    I know the regular M16 can be tough to keep on paper except at very short ranges. (My favorite AR is a .50 Beowulf, and I wouldn't dare try that with a fun switch!)
    Practically speaking, ARs are good for 300 m. Some can shoot them out to 600 but those tiny bullets lose their oats long before that... not that I'd want to be on the receiving end at any range. For longer ranges the 308 is hard to beat, though a friend of mine is developing the 375 Norma Magnum as we type. That should bridge the rather wide gap between the 338 Norma and Lapua magnums and the .50 BMG. IIRC the 375 should be delivering ca. 6K or 8K lb-ft of energy at the muzzle with something like a 300 or 350 gr. slug. It promises to be something of a revolutionary cartridge and a whole set of weapons systems are being designed around it, several of the multi-barreled variety. Jimmy Sloan is a cartridge designing fool and genius.
    Last edited by osan; 04-10-2012 at 12:55 PM.
    --

    http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
    http://turnyourbackonthem.wordpress.com

    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    vtech?

    Are you talking about the .45 H and K SOCOM?

    If so, I shot one those, suppressed, and found it doing the same thing, smoky and dirty as all hell. My face and hands were covered in soot after 100 rounds or so.

    Go fast fun FTW.
    Not HK... maybe I have the name botched... it was that odd .45 FA whose bolt opens and recedes into the handle. Controllable, but the smoke was really weird. The brass emerged with what seemed like a goodly coating of oil on them. Go figger.
    --

    http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
    http://turnyourbackonthem.wordpress.com

    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    I would call that a fair assessment of the weapon. I have also seen high-speed video of them operating FA. As opposed to an AR, which is rock solid, the AK flexes as if it was made of rubber. Give that, it is amazing that you can hit anything other than by dumb luck. But being FA, it is still fun. The M16, however, is far and away the superior weapon in every respect except perhaps reliability under conditions of extreme filth.
    Yep, I've seen those videos, too. Pretty eye-opening stuff.

    I agree that the M16 is the better overall weapon. I might prefer the AK if I could only own one rifle for the rest of my life and no spare parts, since AKs very rarely break any parts. But under current circumstances I prefer the AR because it's much more accurate than a typical AK, has greater effective range, and penetrates armor better. Its durability and reliability are more than sufficient as long as one allows for parts that wear down, like gas rings and extractor springs.

    But what did you think of the shortie M16 with the rate reducer?
    Given the full power 5.56 rounds it was very controllable, though if the burst went much past 7 rounds the muzzle began wandering upward. But with plenty of practice one could learn to control it. With lower power rounds it should be very manageable. The 11 inch barrel made it hella loud. Without ears I would expect serious problems for one's hearing. I would also note that the shock wave from the muzzle was on the harsh side. The M60 had a standard barrel, but I have been told that the short barreled guns are painfully thunderous in report and the muzzle blast can give some folks nose bleeds.
    I've heard that the shorter-barreled M16 variants are easier to control than the regular ones. I haven't had the opportunity to compare for myself, but I've seen people have trouble keeping more than one bullet from a three-round burst on a paper plate at even 25 yards with a standard-length M16.

    At what range would you consider that to be useful?
    For directed fire I would say perhaps 75-100 yards tops, if that. They are designed for close quarters work. I would, however, pity to poor slob opening up with one of those in a confined space. Short barrels are always very loud.
    Sorry, I meant to ask at what range you'd be able to keep a burst on target from that shorty.

    As for the range at which the weapon is effective, 75-100 yards sounds like what I've read elsewhere. The terminal ballistics of those short weapons really suffers, at least with FMJ ammo. And yeah, those things are brutally loud.

    I know the regular M16 can be tough to keep on paper except at very short ranges. (My favorite AR is a .50 Beowulf, and I wouldn't dare try that with a fun switch!)
    Practically speaking, ARs are good for 300 m. Some can shoot them out to 600 but those tiny bullets lose their oats long before that... not that I'd want to be on the receiving end at any range. For longer ranges the 308 is hard to beat, though a friend of mine is developing the 375 Norma Magnum as we type. That should bridge the rather wide gap between the 338 Norma and Lapua magnums and the .50 BMG. IIRC the 375 should be delivering ca. 6K or 8K lb-ft of energy at the muzzle with something like a 300 or 350 gr. slug. It promises to be something of a revolutionary cartridge and a whole set of weapons systems are being designed around it, several of the multi-barreled variety. Jimmy Sloan is a cartridge designing fool and genius.
    Oops, I misspoke: I meant the regular M16 can be tough to keep on paper in burst mode except at very short ranges. When shot carefully, those rifles are very accurate out to 300 m and even further if you have good ammo. But again, I agree with you that the terminal ballistics start to suck after that.

    I didn't realize it was a friend of yours who was developing the .375 Norma. Sounds awesome! For the time being I'm investing in the .50 BMG, since AP ammo is available and the rifles are getting much lighter than they used to be (there are some that weigh less than an unloaded M249). Once I have that base adequately covered, I'll investigate some of the newer rounds, and the .375 Norma will definitely be one of them.
    "Man lives freely only by his readiness to die." -- Mohandas K. Gandhi

    "Generally speaking, the way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death." -- Miyamoto Musashi





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