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Quite long... cliffs?
What I say is for entertainment purposes only!
Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.
"If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers
This.Originally Posted by cubical
If you read Zarlenga's book (the first 3/4 is highly recommended, the last 1/4 not so much), he makes a strong case that the total supply of gold is too small relative to the total economy, making it too easy for a small number of very wealthy people to gain control of enough gold to manipulate prices, interest rates, the directions of markets, etc. for their own profit, and to the detriment not only of other market players but the broader economy.
This might make sense if the price of gold was static. As some major player tries to hoard the gold, it will skyrocket in value beyond its "true" value. The powers who try to buy up all the gold will in essence be selling off other at assets dirt cheap prices. When someone is hoarding money, it is good for everyone else, assuming he gets the money in an honest way(ie selling a product rather than theft or counterfeit).
What I say is for entertainment purposes only!
Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.
"If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers
No, it makes sense because it isn't.
Nope. Buy on margin, kite the price, sell at a profit. You seem to have a remarkably naive view of how financial markets work.As some major player tries to hoard the gold, it will skyrocket in value beyond its "true" value. The powers who try to buy up all the gold will in essence be selling off other at assets dirt cheap prices.
Nope. Deflation is NOT good for everyone else.When someone is hoarding money, it is good for everyone else, assuming he gets the money in an honest way(ie selling a product rather than theft or counterfeit).
Great arguments. I really see where cubical was wrong, and why you must be right.
I hope you enlighten us more with your impeccable reasoning and analysis.
"You cannot solve these problems with war." - Ron Paul
How would it make sense? As gold moves higher, the buyer(manipulator if you want to call him that) will have to give up more and more assets to keep finding new sellers.
If you are the only major buyer, you can't prop up the price, certainly not long enough to unload your position. Besides, you could attempt this with any asset, not just gold. It really has nothing to do with gold.
Wrong. Let's say Steve Jobs had become so rich that he owned 50% of the money in the United States. Then right before he passed away he said he was burning all his cash. You really believe this would not increase the purchasing power, thus be good, for EVERYONE else who held dollars?
What I say is for entertainment purposes only!
Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.
"If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers
Unless someone is pointing a gun at a group, free market will intervene and a new medium and commodity for exchanging goods will be sought and agreed upon VOLUNTARILY.
Question...
How is everything you just said in the above paragraph not all ready what we have under the fiat/central bank system?
The current system is a debt money system, not a fiat money system. A fiat money system is under the control of the money issuer, basically the government. The debt money system is under the control of bankers, who issue money by lending it. Much as I distrust government, I trust it more than I trust bankers.
Nonsense.
Roy believes if a dog barks, there must be two dogs.
Fiat system is what we have. It is under the control of the money issuer.not a fiat money system. A fiat money system is under the control of the money issuer, basically the government.
Because you hold some crack pot theory of "Debt" money - you are so twisted around, you think banks make money out of thin air - yet! when any one tries to collect this thin air money ... it evaporates!
You live in leprechaun land... as long as no one finds the gold at the end of the rainbow, it must be there!
Oh... i see. So for the sake of argument lets just forget for a second that the bankers and all the other special interests and complexes don't infest and control government. We just put the printing press into the hands of guys who bring us such wonderful things as the patriot act, NDDA, assassinations of US citizens, TSA, the war on drugs, endless foreign wars and 10s of trillions in debt and unfunded liabilities and things will be sooooooo much better....
Utter nonsense.
The particular unit of currency per good is infinitely flexible.
You have heard of "1c" piece right?
The ability to manipulate gold long term and systemically does not exist.
The gold market trade is the largest trade on earth ... its size eventually and shortly overwhelms anyone too stupid or too slow.
Look at the gold price chart for the last 30 years and tell me the market has not been manipulated. It was OBVIOUSLY kept in a narrow trading range in the 1990s.
Not when the currency IS a good. When its value gets too far from its production cost, the system becomes unstable.
Actually if that occurs than the production of said good decreases until the equilibrium is found again. Is it coincidence that a set of fine dress clothes has cost about an ounce of gold going all the way back to Ancient Rome?
I wonder how that happened.
We experienced deflation in the US for 150 years of our history until 1913. During that time we went from being a third world country to the leading manufacturing power in the world. By World War I we had surpassed the UK as the leading industrial power in the world. All while on a gold standard and without a central bank.
Deflation is the reward for a healthy economy. Deflation is the result of improved productivity and leads to an improvement of living conditions for the average man.
Yes, deflation is the big scary monster Keynesians will want you to fear. My costs of living steadily going down? Bring it on.
What I say is for entertainment purposes only!
Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.
"If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers
My understanding is that:
Fiat money is money which is not backed by a physical asset, but circulated and used on the basis of legal tender laws.
The definition of fiat being: A formal authorization or proposition; a decree.
Debt money is "money" which is in fact not money at all, but debt. In fact if I understand correctly, it is not just that a bank creates a debt from the borrower to the bank, but also that the bank creates a debt from the bank to the borrower. So the bank promises to pay the borrower what the borrower promises to pay back to the bank. In effect there is no money, just a whole load of promises to pay (I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of XXX)
So if I understand correctly, we have a fiat-debt money system.
For Liberty!
Money is physical.
Just look into your wallet and see it.
Gold is not backed by anything other than itself, too.
True, but it is still money.The definition of fiat being: A formal authorization or proposition; a decree.
Correct, which is why it is a grave error to treat it as money, establish monetary policy as if it was money and to make cause/effect calculations of money as if it was money. You will get the wrong answers.Debt money is "money" which is in fact not money at all, but debt.
Correction.... bank to depositorIn fact if I understand correctly, it is not just that a bank creates a debt from the borrower to the bank, but also that the bank creates a debt from the bank to the borrower.
Other than depositor/borrower misnaming... it is not money, but a whole lot of promises to pay that must -one day- be reconciled with money.So the bank promises to pay the borrower what the borrower promises to pay back to the bank. In effect there is no money, just a whole load of promises to pay (I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of XXX)
As long as the borrower/depositors are matched, eventually everything works out.
If depositors withdraw or borrowers renege, serious issues occur.
No, we just have fiat money and a fractional reserve system.So if I understand correctly, we have a fiat-debt money system.
It is important to understand that it is not the fiat nature of modern money that is (necessarily) a problem.
It is the fractional reserve system that is the significant problem.
It is a fraudulent system based on deception of the bank upon the depositor. As will all immoral operations, it tends to end badly.
There is nothing fraudulent about a fractional reserve system as long as you are aware that the money you have deposited has been lent out. If you don't want it lent out then put it in a safe deposit box and pay storage cost instead of earning interest. This is a choice you have to make and it has nothing to do with fraud.
I would agree with this. The main problem is our current central banking system.
In a free banking system, banks should still be required to be clear on how the system works.
No, the fraud is the promise you can get your money upon demand, and that promise has been made 9 times over per dollar...so, 8 of "you" are going to lose one day.
You have a promise you can get access to your money upon demand so long as the bank is solvent and in the case of the US the FDIC is solvent. Depositing money in a bank is akin to buying a rollover bond with instantaneous maturity. Upon maturity you can choose not to roll over your bond and receive payment of the principal. However if in the mean time your debtor becomes insolvent then like any bond holder you will likely suffer a loss.
If you are not willing to take that risk you have an easy way out : don't buy the "bond". No one is deceiving you.
The fraud is precisely that money lent out has not been deposited by anyone but the bank itself, which creates the deposit by lending it. Money deposited by customers is used as reserves, not lent out.
If I deposit $100 the bank owes me $100. If the reserve requirement is 10% the bank can lend out $90 and keep $10 as reserve. Where is the fraud?
Grignon's 'money as debt' and 'money as debt II : promises unleashed' seem to be along the same lines.In his second part,grignon hides (intentionally I expect) Hoover's ignoring of Mellon's advice to let 'em go bust and all Hoover's big programs and paints a rosey picture of FDR. From the video they are trying to create a meme and seemingly being very successfull at it.They know as well as we that something is coming down the track and they are making their plans to be the inheritors.Know your enemy.
Zerlanger is a sociologist.A mind-bender.I'd be very interested to discover his associations.A smiling face on the iron fist.
Last edited by S.Shorland; 04-08-2012 at 09:21 AM.
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