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Thread: Kucinich And Stephen Zarlenga Anti-Gold Drive

  1. #1

    Default Kucinich And Stephen Zarlenga Anti-Gold Drive



    The LAND Of Israel Forever

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  3. #2

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    Quite long... cliffs?
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Quite long... cliffs?
    This.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Quite long... cliffs?
    If you read Zarlenga's book (the first 3/4 is highly recommended, the last 1/4 not so much), he makes a strong case that the total supply of gold is too small relative to the total economy, making it too easy for a small number of very wealthy people to gain control of enough gold to manipulate prices, interest rates, the directions of markets, etc. for their own profit, and to the detriment not only of other market players but the broader economy.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    If you read Zarlenga's book (the first 3/4 is highly recommended, the last 1/4 not so much), he makes a strong case that the total supply of gold is too small relative to the total economy, making it too easy for a small number of very wealthy people to gain control of enough gold to manipulate prices, interest rates, the directions of markets, etc. for their own profit, and to the detriment not only of other market players but the broader economy.
    This might make sense if the price of gold was static. As some major player tries to hoard the gold, it will skyrocket in value beyond its "true" value. The powers who try to buy up all the gold will in essence be selling off other at assets dirt cheap prices. When someone is hoarding money, it is good for everyone else, assuming he gets the money in an honest way(ie selling a product rather than theft or counterfeit).
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    This might make sense if the price of gold was static.
    No, it makes sense because it isn't.
    As some major player tries to hoard the gold, it will skyrocket in value beyond its "true" value. The powers who try to buy up all the gold will in essence be selling off other at assets dirt cheap prices.
    Nope. Buy on margin, kite the price, sell at a profit. You seem to have a remarkably naive view of how financial markets work.
    When someone is hoarding money, it is good for everyone else, assuming he gets the money in an honest way(ie selling a product rather than theft or counterfeit).
    Nope. Deflation is NOT good for everyone else.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    If you read Zarlenga's book (the first 3/4 is highly recommended, the last 1/4 not so much), he makes a strong case that the total supply of gold is too small relative to the total economy, making it too easy for a small number of very wealthy people to gain control of enough gold to manipulate prices, interest rates, the directions of markets, etc. for their own profit, and to the detriment not only of other market players but the broader economy.
    Question...

    How is everything you just said in the above paragraph not all ready what we have under the fiat/central bank system?

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    No, it makes sense because it isn't.

    Nope. Buy on margin, kite the price, sell at a profit. You seem to have a remarkably naive view of how financial markets work.

    Nope. Deflation is NOT good for everyone else.
    Great arguments. I really see where cubical was wrong, and why you must be right.

    I hope you enlighten us more with your impeccable reasoning and analysis.
    "You cannot solve these problems with war." - Ron Paul

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    No, it makes sense because it isn't.

    Nope. Buy on margin, kite the price, sell at a profit. You seem to have a remarkably naive view of how financial markets work.

    Nope. Deflation is NOT good for everyone else.
    How would it make sense? As gold moves higher, the buyer(manipulator if you want to call him that) will have to give up more and more assets to keep finding new sellers.

    If you are the only major buyer, you can't prop up the price, certainly not long enough to unload your position. Besides, you could attempt this with any asset, not just gold. It really has nothing to do with gold.

    Wrong. Let's say Steve Jobs had become so rich that he owned 50% of the money in the United States. Then right before he passed away he said he was burning all his cash. You really believe this would not increase the purchasing power, thus be good, for EVERYONE else who held dollars?
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    How is everything you just said in the above paragraph not all ready what we have under the fiat/central bank system?
    The current system is a debt money system, not a fiat money system. A fiat money system is under the control of the money issuer, basically the government. The debt money system is under the control of bankers, who issue money by lending it. Much as I distrust government, I trust it more than I trust bankers.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    How would it make sense? As gold moves higher, the buyer(manipulator if you want to call him that) will have to give up more and more assets to keep finding new sellers.
    He doesn't have to give up any assets. He borrows against the rising price of his gold.
    If you are the only major buyer, you can't prop up the price, certainly not long enough to unload your position.
    LOL! I have worked with market makers and stock promoters. You are simply wrong.
    Besides, you could attempt this with any asset, not just gold. It really has nothing to do with gold.
    It's true that people do it with other assets, typically stocks and debt instruments. But if gold is money, the manipulation affects everything else throughout the economy.
    Wrong.
    Every economist agrees with me.
    Let's say Steve Jobs had become so rich that he owned 50% of the money in the United States. Then right before he passed away he said he was burning all his cash. You really believe this would not increase the purchasing power, thus be good, for EVERYONE else who held dollars?
    It would certainly be good in the short run for everyone else who held or was owed more dollars than he owed or wanted to spend, but it would be bad for debtors, and bad for the economy.

  13. #12

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    Any amount of gold (or anything else for that matter) is enough to represent any size economy. To say otherwise is an absurdity. If I have to divide a kilometer of gold in enough pieces so that all people on the planet have a piece, and all of their pieces were given 1-1 ratio for their dollars, how small would you like me to go until I've proven you wrong?

    Meters?
    Centimeter?
    Millimeter?
    Micrometer?
    Nanometer?
    Picometer?
    Femtometer? one quadrillionth (millionth of a billionth) of a meter, or 0.000000000000001m.

    Surely that's enough to cover all currency units of the world combined. Again - any size of anything is large enough to represent any size economy. To say otherwise is an absurdity and ignores the above example. Anyone who claims that gold is not plentiful enough to represent any sized economy is proposing a childish argument and shows a complete lack of understanding of what money is.

  14. #13

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    We experienced deflation in the US for 150 years of our history until 1913. During that time we went from being a third world country to the leading manufacturing power in the world. By World War I we had surpassed the UK as the leading industrial power in the world. All while on a gold standard and without a central bank.

    Deflation is the reward for a healthy economy. Deflation is the result of improved productivity and leads to an improvement of living conditions for the average man.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    He doesn't have to give up any assets. He borrows against the rising price of his gold.

    LOL! I have worked with market makers and stock promoters. You are simply wrong.

    It's true that people do it with other assets, typically stocks and debt instruments. But if gold is money, the manipulation affects everything else throughout the economy.

    Every economist agrees with me.

    It would certainly be good in the short run for everyone else who held or was owed more dollars than he owed or wanted to spend, but it would be bad for debtors, and bad for the economy.
    You don't see the whole picture. Whoever is giving him money would be giving up assets. If a bank is giving him money to be buy my gold at 50k an ounce, fine, I will take the banks money and go pay off my house or buy a car or start a company. Regardless of who is paying, they would have to be paying a lot.

    No you don't because this doesn't happen on the scale you are purposing. Think Hunt Brothers. You are speaking of every day market manipulation.

    If the fact that it is currency was important, then people could just manipulate the dollar there is no difference. And before you speak on size, remember price is relative. This is a pretty weak argument.

    Don't show your ignorance so strongly.

    It would be good in the long run. Some creditors would have to refinance, but everyone's purchasing power and standard of living would rise. You add to the economy why you collect money and you take from it when you spend(consume). Imagine rather than dollars, he had goods. He dies and gives them to everyone. Its the same idea.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokemonsc View Post
    We experienced deflation in the US for 150 years of our history until 1913. During that time we went from being a third world country to the leading manufacturing power in the world. By World War I we had surpassed the UK as the leading industrial power in the world. All while on a gold standard and without a central bank.

    Deflation is the reward for a healthy economy. Deflation is the result of improved productivity and leads to an improvement of living conditions for the average man.
    Yes, deflation is the big scary monster Keynesians will want you to fear. My costs of living steadily going down? Bring it on.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    If you read Zarlenga's book (the first 3/4 is highly recommended, the last 1/4 not so much), he makes a strong case that the total supply of gold is too small relative to the total economy, making it too easy for a small number of very wealthy people to gain control of enough gold to manipulate prices, interest rates, the directions of markets, etc. for their own profit, and to the detriment not only of other market players but the broader economy.
    Utter nonsense.

    The particular unit of currency per good is infinitely flexible.

    You have heard of "1c" piece right?

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    Every economist agrees with me.
    Ahhh...no.

  19. #18

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    The ability to manipulate gold long term and systemically does not exist.

    The gold market trade is the largest trade on earth ... its size eventually and shortly overwhelms anyone too stupid or too slow.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    The current system is a debt money system
    Nonsense.

    Roy believes if a dog barks, there must be two dogs.

    not a fiat money system. A fiat money system is under the control of the money issuer, basically the government.
    Fiat system is what we have. It is under the control of the money issuer.

    Because you hold some crack pot theory of "Debt" money - you are so twisted around, you think banks make money out of thin air - yet! when any one tries to collect this thin air money ... it evaporates!

    You live in leprechaun land... as long as no one finds the gold at the end of the rainbow, it must be there!

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Flag View Post
    The particular unit of currency per good is infinitely flexible.
    Not when the currency IS a good. When its value gets too far from its production cost, the system becomes unstable.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Flag View Post
    Roy believes if a dog barks, there must be two dogs.
    Whereas BF believes the presence of a dog does not imply that at least two other dogs existed....
    Fiat system is what we have. It is under the control of the money issuer.
    No. The current system is not a fiat money system, as the great majority of our money is issued by private banks as debt.
    Because you hold some crack pot theory of "Debt" money - you are so twisted around, you think banks make money out of thin air
    They make it out of borrowers' legal obligations to repay their debts.
    - yet! when any one tries to collect this thin air money ... it evaporates!
    Nonsense. It is when debts are repaid that debt money disappears. I have already explained this to you.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Flag View Post
    The ability to manipulate gold long term and systemically does not exist.

    The gold market trade is the largest trade on earth ... its size eventually and shortly overwhelms anyone too stupid or too slow.
    Look at the gold price chart for the last 30 years and tell me the market has not been manipulated. It was OBVIOUSLY kept in a narrow trading range in the 1990s.

  24. #23

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    http://www.monetary.org/ As this is where the statists will come from after the collapse,They get 33% of their support from sales of his book so on second thoughts,don't buy it.Watch the videos here and on youtube and his website.

    http://www.monetary.org/the-1930s-ch...ry-act/2009/08
    Last edited by S.Shorland; 04-08-2012 at 04:59 AM.
    The LAND Of Israel Forever

    The armed man asks 'Why?'.The unarmed man says 'Yes!'.

    'Long Live Insert Name Here!'

    www.endofhistory.info

  25. #24

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    My understanding is that:

    Fiat money is money which is not backed by a physical asset, but circulated and used on the basis of legal tender laws.

    The definition of fiat being: A formal authorization or proposition; a decree.

    Debt money is "money" which is in fact not money at all, but debt. In fact if I understand correctly, it is not just that a bank creates a debt from the borrower to the bank, but also that the bank creates a debt from the bank to the borrower. So the bank promises to pay the borrower what the borrower promises to pay back to the bank. In effect there is no money, just a whole load of promises to pay (I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of XXX)





    So if I understand correctly, we have a fiat-debt money system.
    For Liberty!

  26. #25

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    Grignon's 'money as debt' and 'money as debt II : promises unleashed' seem to be along the same lines.In his second part,grignon hides (intentionally I expect) Hoover's ignoring of Mellon's advice to let 'em go bust and all Hoover's big programs and paints a rosey picture of FDR. From the video they are trying to create a meme and seemingly being very successfull at it.They know as well as we that something is coming down the track and they are making their plans to be the inheritors.Know your enemy.

    Zerlanger is a sociologist.A mind-bender.I'd be very interested to discover his associations.A smiling face on the iron fist.
    Last edited by S.Shorland; 04-08-2012 at 09:21 AM.
    The LAND Of Israel Forever

    The armed man asks 'Why?'.The unarmed man says 'Yes!'.

    'Long Live Insert Name Here!'

    www.endofhistory.info

  27. #26

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    ..
    The LAND Of Israel Forever

    The armed man asks 'Why?'.The unarmed man says 'Yes!'.

    'Long Live Insert Name Here!'

    www.endofhistory.info

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    No, it makes sense because it isn't.

    Nope. Buy on margin, kite the price, sell at a profit. You seem to have a remarkably naive view of how financial markets work.

    Nope. Deflation is NOT good for everyone else.
    Unless someone is pointing a gun at a group, free market will intervene and a new medium and commodity for exchanging goods will be sought and agreed upon VOLUNTARILY.
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  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    Look at the gold price chart for the last 30 years and tell me the market has not been manipulated. It was OBVIOUSLY kept in a narrow trading range in the 1990s.
    What is so manipulated about it? Just because you don't think a price should be where it is, means nothing. The market is greater than you.

    Your "debt money" talk would make sense if you truly believe the fed will call in this debt money and eliminate it. Debt money has done and will cause inflation just as physical money.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    Not when the currency IS a good. When its value gets too far from its production cost, the system becomes unstable.
    Actually if that occurs than the production of said good decreases until the equilibrium is found again. Is it coincidence that a set of fine dress clothes has cost about an ounce of gold going all the way back to Ancient Rome?

    I wonder how that happened.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    The current system is a debt money system, not a fiat money system. A fiat money system is under the control of the money issuer, basically the government. The debt money system is under the control of bankers, who issue money by lending it. Much as I distrust government, I trust it more than I trust bankers.
    Oh... i see. So for the sake of argument lets just forget for a second that the bankers and all the other special interests and complexes don't infest and control government. We just put the printing press into the hands of guys who bring us such wonderful things as the patriot act, NDDA, assassinations of US citizens, TSA, the war on drugs, endless foreign wars and 10s of trillions in debt and unfunded liabilities and things will be sooooooo much better....

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