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Thread: Hiroshima revisited: Dropping WMD on populated cities dishonorable way to win a war?

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by DerailingDaTrain View Post
    Yeah...because Japan bombed us for no reason.
    Excuse me? What planet do you live on?

    The Japanese were forced into war with us because of our sanctions against them- they had no oil. FDR knew the Japanese were on their way and withheld vital information; he had the big ships moved out and left the small ones for the Japs to bomb.

    The Japanese also sent a message through Russia to MacArthur trying to surrender- they only asked that they be able to keep their emperor, as this was sacred to them. Truman denied them and bombed them, with almost every major military leader against it.

    Truman did this NOT to save lives but to show the uppity Russians that the US was boss.
    Last edited by Ender; 04-07-2012 at 05:08 PM.
    There is no spoon.



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Excuse me? What planet do you live on?

    The Japanese were forced into war with us because of our sanctions against them- they had no oil. FDR knew the Japanese were on their way and withheld vital information; he had the big ships moved out and left the small ones for the Japs to bomb.

    The Japanese also sent a message through Russia to McArthur trying to surrender- they only asked that they be able to keep their emperor, as this was sacred to them. Truman denied them and bombed them, with almost every major military leader against it.

    Truman did this NOT to save lives but to show the uppity Russians that the US was boss.
    One, the issue of oil was a lot more complex than you are stating here.

    Second, if you provide proof that the Japanese surrendered through messages to McArthur, I'll reconsider my position. As far as I know, we gave the Japanese an ultimatum, surrender or get bombed. They didn't respond.

    us vs them. We win. Game over.
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by No Free Beer View Post
    One, the issue of oil was a lot more complex than you are stating here.

    Second, if you provide proof that the Japanese surrendered through messages to McArthur, I'll reconsider my position. As far as I know, we gave the Japanese an ultimatum, surrender or get bombed. They didn't respond.

    us vs them. We win. Game over.
    Well, here is from a paper of the day- the first offer went directly to MacArthur- the last one went through the Russians.

    Chicago Tribune, August 19,1945
    JAPS ASKED PEACE IN JAN. ENVOYS ON WAY -- TOKYO
    Roosevelt Ignored M'Arthur Report On Nip Proposals
    By Walter Trohan

    Release of all censorship restrictions in the United States makes it possible to report that the first Japanese peace bid was relayed to the White House seven months ago.

    Two days before the late President Roosevelt left the last week in January for the Yalta conference with Prime Minister Churchill and Marshal Stalin he received a Japanese offer identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, Harry S. Truman.
    MacArthur Relayed Message to F.D.

    The Jap offer, based on five separate overtures, was relayed to the White House by Gen. MacArthur in a 40-page communication. The American commander, who had just returned triumphantly to Bataan, urged negotiations on the basis of the Jap overtures.
    The offer, as relayed by MacArthur, contemplated abject surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. The suggestion was advanced from the Japanese quarters making the offer that the Emperor become a puppet in the hands of American forces.
    Two of the five Jap overtures were made through American channels and three through British channels. All came from responsible Japanese, acting for Emperor Hirohito.

    General's Communication Dismissed
    President Roosevelt dismissed the general's communication, which was studded with solemn references to the deity, after a casual reading with the remark, "MacArthur is our greatest general and our poorest politician."

    The MacArthur report was not even taken to Yalta. However, it was carefully preserved in the files of the high command and subsequently became the basis of the Truman-Attlee Potsdam declaration calling for surrender of Japan.

    This Jap peace bid was known to the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald shortly after the MacArthur comunication reached here. It was not published under the paper’s established policy of complete co-operation with the voluntary censorship code.

    Must Explain Delay

    Now that peace has been concluded on the basis of the terms MacArthur reported, high administration officials prepared to meet expected congressional demands for explanation of the delay. It was considered certain that from various quarters of Congress charges would be hurled that the delay cost thousands of American lives and casualties, particularly in such costly offensives as Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
    It was explained in high official circles that the bid relayed by MacArthur did not constitute an official offer in the same sense as the final offer which was presented through Japanese diplomatic channels at Bern and Stockholm last week for relay to the four major Allied powers.
    No negotiations were begun on the basis of the bid, it was said, because it was feared that if any were undertaken the Jap war lords, who were presumed to be ignorant of the feelers, would visit swift punishment on those making the offer.

    It was held possible that the war lords might even assassinate the Emperor and announce the son of heaven had fled the earth in a fury of indignation over the peace bid.

    Defeat Seen Inevitable

    Officials said it was felt by Mr. Roosevelt that the Japs were not ripe for peace, except for a small group, who were powerless to cope with the war lords, and that peace could not come until the Japs had suffered more.

    The Jap overtures were made on acknowledgment that defeat was inevitable and Japan had to choose the best way out of an unhappy dilemma -- domination of Asia by Russia or by the United States. The unofficial Jap peace brokers said the latter would be preferable by far.

    Jap proposals to Gen. MacArthur contemplated:

    1. Full surrender of all Jap forces on sea, in the air, at home, on island possessions and in occupied countries.
    2. Surrender of all arms and munitions.
    3. Occupation of the Jap homeland and island possessions by Allied troops under American direction.

    Would Give Up Territory

    4. Jap relinquishment from Manchuria, Korea and Formosa as well as all territory seized during the war.
    5. Regulation of Jap industry to halt present and future production of implements of war.
    6. Turning over of any Japanese the United States might designate as war criminals.
    7. Immediate release of all prisoners of war and internees in Japan proper and areas under Japanese control.
    After the fall of Germany, the policy of unconditional surrender drew critical fire. In the Senate Senator White (R.) of Maine Capehart (R.) of Indiana took the lead in demanding that precise terms be given Japan and in asking whether peace feelers had not been received from the Nipponese.

    Terms Drafted in July

    In July the Tribune reported that a set of terms were being drafted for President Truman to take to Potsdam. Capehart hailed the reported terms on the floor of the Senate as a great contribution to universal peace.

    These terms, which were embodied in the Potsdam declaration did not mention the disposition of the Emperor. Otherwise they were almost identical with the proposals contained in the MacArthur memorandum.

    Just before the Japanese surrender the Russian foreign commissar disclosed that the Japs had made peace overtures through Moscow asking that the Soviets mediate the war. These overtures were made in the middle of June through the Russian foreign office and also through a personal letter from Hirohito to Stalin Both overtures were reported to the United States and Britain.

    For further reading;
    • Barnes, Harry Elmer, "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958, pp. 441-443.
    • Current, Richard N, Secretary Stimson, Rutgers University Press, 1954.
    • Trohan, Walter, Political Animals.
    • Zacharias, Ellis M., Secret Missions
    Last edited by Ender; 04-07-2012 at 05:10 PM.
    There is no spoon.

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodo...lag_and_legacy



    Doesn't this strike anyone as a little fishy?

    It's a gold-fringed flag!


    Engage tin-foil, maximum power!

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Excuse me? What planet do you live on?
    I think Derailing was being sarcastic with his "Yeah...because Japan bombed us for no reason" comment.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by NIU Students for Liberty View Post
    I think Derailing was being sarcastic with his "Yeah...because Japan bombed us for no reason" comment.
    Aaaaahhh....missed that.

    Thanks.
    There is no spoon.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Well, here is from a paper of the day- the first offer went directly to MacArthur- the last one went through the Russians.

    Chicago Tribune, August 19,1945
    JAPS ASKED PEACE IN JAN. ENVOYS ON WAY -- TOKYO
    Roosevelt Ignored M'Arthur Report On Nip Proposals
    By Walter Trohan

    Release of all censorship restrictions in the United States makes it possible to report that the first Japanese peace bid was relayed to the White House seven months ago.

    Two days before the late President Roosevelt left the last week in January for the Yalta conference with Prime Minister Churchill and Marshal Stalin he received a Japanese offer identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, Harry S. Truman.
    MacArthur Relayed Message to F.D.

    The Jap offer, based on five separate overtures, was relayed to the White House by Gen. MacArthur in a 40-page communication. The American commander, who had just returned triumphantly to Bataan, urged negotiations on the basis of the Jap overtures.
    The offer, as relayed by MacArthur, contemplated abject surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. The suggestion was advanced from the Japanese quarters making the offer that the Emperor become a puppet in the hands of American forces.
    Two of the five Jap overtures were made through American channels and three through British channels. All came from responsible Japanese, acting for Emperor Hirohito.

    General's Communication Dismissed
    President Roosevelt dismissed the general's communication, which was studded with solemn references to the deity, after a casual reading with the remark, "MacArthur is our greatest general and our poorest politician."

    The MacArthur report was not even taken to Yalta. However, it was carefully preserved in the files of the high command and subsequently became the basis of the Truman-Attlee Potsdam declaration calling for surrender of Japan.

    This Jap peace bid was known to the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald shortly after the MacArthur comunication reached here. It was not published under the paper’s established policy of complete co-operation with the voluntary censorship code.

    Must Explain Delay

    Now that peace has been concluded on the basis of the terms MacArthur reported, high administration officials prepared to meet expected congressional demands for explanation of the delay. It was considered certain that from various quarters of Congress charges would be hurled that the delay cost thousands of American lives and casualties, particularly in such costly offensives as Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
    It was explained in high official circles that the bid relayed by MacArthur did not constitute an official offer in the same sense as the final offer which was presented through Japanese diplomatic channels at Bern and Stockholm last week for relay to the four major Allied powers.
    No negotiations were begun on the basis of the bid, it was said, because it was feared that if any were undertaken the Jap war lords, who were presumed to be ignorant of the feelers, would visit swift punishment on those making the offer.

    It was held possible that the war lords might even assassinate the Emperor and announce the son of heaven had fled the earth in a fury of indignation over the peace bid.

    Defeat Seen Inevitable

    Officials said it was felt by Mr. Roosevelt that the Japs were not ripe for peace, except for a small group, who were powerless to cope with the war lords, and that peace could not come until the Japs had suffered more.

    The Jap overtures were made on acknowledgment that defeat was inevitable and Japan had to choose the best way out of an unhappy dilemma -- domination of Asia by Russia or by the United States. The unofficial Jap peace brokers said the latter would be preferable by far.

    Jap proposals to Gen. MacArthur contemplated:

    1. Full surrender of all Jap forces on sea, in the air, at home, on island possessions and in occupied countries.
    2. Surrender of all arms and munitions.
    3. Occupation of the Jap homeland and island possessions by Allied troops under American direction.

    Would Give Up Territory

    4. Jap relinquishment from Manchuria, Korea and Formosa as well as all territory seized during the war.
    5. Regulation of Jap industry to halt present and future production of implements of war.
    6. Turning over of any Japanese the United States might designate as war criminals.
    7. Immediate release of all prisoners of war and internees in Japan proper and areas under Japanese control.
    After the fall of Germany, the policy of unconditional surrender drew critical fire. In the Senate Senator White (R.) of Maine Capehart (R.) of Indiana took the lead in demanding that precise terms be given Japan and in asking whether peace feelers had not been received from the Nipponese.

    Terms Drafted in July

    In July the Tribune reported that a set of terms were being drafted for President Truman to take to Potsdam. Capehart hailed the reported terms on the floor of the Senate as a great contribution to universal peace.

    These terms, which were embodied in the Potsdam declaration did not mention the disposition of the Emperor. Otherwise they were almost identical with the proposals contained in the MacArthur memorandum.

    Just before the Japanese surrender the Russian foreign commissar disclosed that the Japs had made peace overtures through Moscow asking that the Soviets mediate the war. These overtures were made in the middle of June through the Russian foreign office and also through a personal letter from Hirohito to Stalin Both overtures were reported to the United States and Britain.

    For further reading;
    • Barnes, Harry Elmer, "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958, pp. 441-443.
    • Current, Richard N, Secretary Stimson, Rutgers University Press, 1954.
    • Trohan, Walter, Political Animals.
    • Zacharias, Ellis M., Secret Missions
    do you have a link for this?
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

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