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Thread: Hiroshima revisited: Dropping WMD on populated cities dishonorable way to win a war?

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    The nukes were nothing, the fire bombing of the major cities was the worst. Far more civilians burned to death from that than the nukes combined. The fire bombings were flat out war crimes.
    Nukes were not "nothing." But fire bombings were most certainly horrendous war crimes.



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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by John F Kennedy III View Post
    I'm not familiar with this, but it's a good rule of thumb to not believe anything our government says.
    Sound advice.

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by moderate libertarian View Post
    That would be a morally defensible stance imo.

    Shockingly, movie depicts a US military general who is hoping for using the WMD on Japan referring to people in Japan as "yellow monkies".

    If that is true and racial bias was also a motivator for US dropping WMDs on those cities, would that be considered a "hate crime" by todays PC standards?
    By our pussy PC standards of today's sick and degenerate world, yes. The truth of the matter is that Imperial Japan's Empire was literally built on rape, child slavery, sex slavery, murder, genocide, racism, and torture. Make no mistake about it, Japanese culture and their politics were absolutely vile and needed to be stopped.

  5. #34

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    Bombing of Dresden anyone? Our U.S. government claims that Dresden was a manufacturing city that had to be bombed....is this true? I doubt it was true since we were already winning the war before the carpet bombing of Dresden.
    At least the Allies had a reason to bomb Dresden. The Germans would purposely bomb cities with large amounts of citizens in Britain.

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by moderate libertarian View Post
    Recently watched movie Fat Man & Little Boy that is based on US military's Manhattan project. Apparently at the time, some scientists and generals dissented and saw dropping of a WMD on a populated city without warning a dishonrable way to win a war. Do you agree or disagree with such a view?

    Little Boy was dropped on the city of Hiroshima on 6 August 1945, followed by the Fat Man over Nagasaki on 9 August. These WMDs dropped on two populated cities by US military killed over 200,000 civilians of Japanese race.
    I believe that we let them know what we were going to do...

    Moreover, we gave the Japanese an ultimatum, surrender or get bombed. They ignored us. Their fault, not ours.

    BTW, for all of those who say "we just killed innocent civilians!", Hiroshima was actually a very strategic decision. It was an industrial port where military headquarters were.

    This is one of my biggest pet peeves with our group, we generalize way too much.
    Last edited by No Free Beer; 04-04-2012 at 07:32 PM.
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  7. #36

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    You missed the part where Japan was trying to surrender for a year and we intentionally kept the war going and then nuked them.

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Free Beer View Post
    I believe that we let them know what we were going to do...

    Moreover, we gave the Japanese an ultimatum, surrender or get bombed. They ignored us. Their fault, not ours.

    BTW, for all of those who say "we just killed innocent civilians!", Hiroshima was actually a very strategic decision. It was an industrial port where military headquarters were.

    This is one of my biggest pet peeves with our group, we generalize way too much.

    My pet peeve with the ultra-right Libertarian movement is the same with the Ultra-Leftist Progressive movement. It is far too anti-american.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLibertarianNationalist View Post
    My pet peeve with the ultra-right Libertarian movement is the same with the Ultra-Leftist Progressive movement. It is far too anti-american.
    When being anti-american means dropping bombs on kids and innocents count me as anti-american. What does it even mean to be American anymore. I think it just means anti-objective.

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLibertarianNationalist View Post
    At least the Allies had a reason to bomb Dresden. The Germans would purposely bomb cities with large amounts of citizens in Britain.
    There was no reason to firebomb Dresden, except for evil and hateful reasons. Germany basically lost the war before Dresden was firebombed.


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  11. #40

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    Pretty rich coming from the country that started dropping bombs on us before we knew we were at even at war. Oh wait - there's no such thing as honor in war. Having said that, we won. I don't care how we did it, and I am happy about that.
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  12. #41

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    I agree. It was a war crime. It was completely unnecessary, the U.S. should have accepted Japan's surrender.

  13. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLibertarianNationalist View Post
    By our pussy PC standards of today's sick and degenerate world, yes. The truth of the matter is that Imperial Japan's Empire was literally built on rape, child slavery, sex slavery, murder, genocide, racism, and torture. Make no mistake about it, Japanese culture and their politics were absolutely vile and needed to be stopped.
    Where are you getting this William Kristol quotation from? Was this recent?

  14. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by JacobSzumniak View Post
    You missed the part where Japan was trying to surrender for a year and we intentionally kept the war going and then nuked them.
    Didn't they have lots of "conditions" in their surrender proposals?

  15. #44

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    Nagasaki was a secondary target due to poor weather and visibility.

  16. #45

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    The idea that all of you would have the knowledge, experience, and temperament to declare what you would have done in the heat of the moment, all while announcing this in hindsight. Brilliant.

    FAIL.
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  17. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by WarNoMore View Post
    I agree. It was a war crime. It was completely unnecessary, the U.S. should have accepted Japan's surrender.
    It was the other way around, unless you can prove me wrong.
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  18. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by John F Kennedy III View Post
    By dropping German nukes on Japan.
    There were no German nukes.

  19. #48

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    While I have extreme reservations on the legitimacy of how the War of Pacific started, I have little problems with how it ended. You have to remember there was a failed coup d'etat within the Japanese military AFTER the bombs were dropped and AFTER the Emperor had resigned to surrender.
    Last edited by AuH20; 04-04-2012 at 09:54 PM.
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  20. #49

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    IMO, Truman played the best poker bluff of all time with the Nuclear weapons. He told the Japanese that we'd drop one a week until they surrendered when in actual truth it would've taken another 3-4 months to get another weapon built after Nagasaki.

    Also, to whoever said the Russians "stole" our nuclear technology, Fuchs basically gave it to them and there was considerable speculation at the time that he may have had lots of help on the inside at Los Alamos.

  21. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Free Beer View Post
    The idea that all of you would have the knowledge, experience, and temperament to declare what you would have done in the heat of the moment, all while announcing this in hindsight. Brilliant.

    FAIL.
    Exactly. Truman didn't start the war but that snake FDR did. Based on the projections, Operation Downfall at minimum would have claimed 400,000 American lives. So yes, you force the Japanese into submission instead of sending many American soldiers to their certain death, along with the potentially incredible collateral damage on the Japanese civilian side.
    Last edited by AuH20; 04-04-2012 at 09:53 PM.
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  22. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    While I have extreme reservations on the legitimacy of how the War of Pacific started, I have little problems with how it ended. You have to remember there was failed coup d'etat within the Japanese military AFTER the bombs were dropped and AFTER the Emperor had resigned to surrender.
    Not to mention hold outs into the 70's.

    You have to keep in mind, just prior, we had fought two of the nastiest conflicts in human history at Iwo Jima and Okinawa. The Japanese Army had fought for almost a month and to the very last man over a 8 square mile island at Iwo Jima and Okinawa was every bit as savage and even bloodier. We had to take that into account when looking at the prospect of invading Honshu; the world would have ran red with blood. Add to that the thought of rolling out the welcoming mat for the Soviets and you have very good reason to try and end the war post haste.
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  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by drummergirl View Post
    IMO, Truman played the best poker bluff of all time with the Nuclear weapons. He told the Japanese that we'd drop one a week until they surrendered when in actual truth it would've taken another 3-4 months to get another weapon built after Nagasaki.

    Also, to whoever said the Russians "stole" our nuclear technology, Fuchs basically gave it to them and there was considerable speculation at the time that he may have had lots of help on the inside at Los Alamos.
    Not "may;" he did. When Truman hinted to Stalin at Potsdam that he was about to use a "powerful new weapon" on Japan, Stalin simply smiled and said "use it wisely." Soviet espionage knew of the Manhattan Project before Truman did.
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  24. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Free Beer View Post
    I believe that we let them know what we were going to do...

    Moreover, we gave the Japanese an ultimatum, surrender or get bombed. They ignored us. Their fault, not ours.

    BTW, for all of those who say "we just killed innocent civilians!", Hiroshima was actually a very strategic decision. It was an industrial port where military headquarters were.

    This is one of my biggest pet peeves with our group, we generalize way too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Oh wait - there's no such thing as honor in war. Having said that, we won. I don't care how we did it, and I am happy about that.
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    There would be riots in the streets, if boobus gave one shit about his honor.
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  26. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by drummergirl View Post
    There were no German nukes.
    Care to elaborate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    There would be riots in the streets, if boobus gave one shit about his honor.
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  27. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by John F Kennedy III View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by BamaAla View Post
    Not to mention hold outs into the 70's.

    You have to keep in mind, just prior, we had fought two of the nastiest conflicts in human history at Iwo Jima and Okinawa. The Japanese Army had fought for almost a month and to the very last man over a 8 square mile island at Iwo Jima and Okinawa was every bit as savage and even bloodier. We had to take that into account when looking at the prospect of invading Honshu; the world would have ran red with blood. Add to that the thought of rolling out the welcoming mat for the Soviets and you have very good reason to try and end the war post haste.
    Luzon ,Wake , Marianas , Pelelui , Manila , Gaudalcanal , Saipan , Corregidor , Burma , Borneo , Tarawa , Aleutian Islands , Alaska , Adak etc etc
    Last edited by oyarde; 04-05-2012 at 01:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BamaAla View Post
    Not "may;" he did. When Truman hinted to Stalin at Potsdam that he was about to use a "powerful new weapon" on Japan, Stalin simply smiled and said "use it wisely." Soviet espionage knew of the Manhattan Project before Truman did.
    Considering this country has been over run with bolsheviks since prior to WW 1 , that would not be a great suprise , only difference was as a troop , when I was about to be over run , I would tell my people to pull out now , call in my FPF , or final protective fire , and light up my own position and take many , now as an old man , I watch them steal more and more ... I find this displeasing , I did not like the other and I may like this even less ....
    Last edited by oyarde; 04-05-2012 at 01:18 AM.

  30. #59

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    Also, the US had been fighting a proxy war with Japan since 1937...
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  31. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Free Beer View Post
    The idea that all of you would have the knowledge, experience, and temperament to declare what you would have done in the heat of the moment, all while announcing this in hindsight. Brilliant.

    FAIL.
    I have to agree with you.
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